Belgium - Medieval Towns and Life Beyond Brussels with Maryann

Maryann Walters is back to take us beyond Brussels and into the heart of Belgium, a country often overlooked by travelers but packed with history, culture, and character.

We explore Flanders and its legendary cobblestone cycling routes, including the famous Tour of Flanders, before heading to Ronse, a border town where French and Flemish cultures meet. Along the way, Maryann explains the differences between Flemish and Dutch, how Belgium's history shapes modern identity, and why friendships here tend to run deep.

We also cover the practical side of life in Belgium, from housing and transportation to food, beer, and the country's famously social lunch culture. Finally, we visit the Ardennes and Dinant, where castles, cliffs, and the River Meuse reveal one of Belgium's most beautiful regions.

Subscribe, share with a fellow traveler, and leave a review if Belgium just moved up your bucket list.

Map of Belgium 

Transcript

Welcome And Why Belgium

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Hi, welcome to our podcast, Where Next? Travel with Kristen and Carol. I am Kristen. And I am Carol. And we're two long-term friends with a passion for travel and adventure.

SPEAKER_02 0:27

Each episode, we interview people around the globe to help us decide where to go next.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Hi, Miriam. Welcome back to the podcast. So it looks like today we're going to go a little deeper into Belgium. We touched on it last time, but there's so many more questions we have.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

I have prepared a couple different sites in Belgium. And some of my absolute favorite things to do in those sites and things we're seeing that are maybe a little bit off the beaten track. I love it. As well as to talk about some of the traditional foods and um the my favorite breweries. I have worked hard to come up with content that does not feature cycling. Oh okay. Yeah. But it's very easy to do because it's a beautiful, beautiful, wonderful place.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

That sounds fantastic. Why do you keep coming back to Belgium even for cycling? Because I know both your husband and you like to cycle, and that's what drew you there. And the uh but I'm assuming it's much more than that. And then how often do you go there and how long do you stay there? And then I know you were saying something when we were talking earlier that you would even like to purchase a house there.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

Yeah,

Cobblestone Climbs And Cycling Culture

SPEAKER_04 1:36

for sure. Well, yeah, we started going to Belgium because of cycling. Now, while Belgium is not known for being an outdoor vacation destination because of its terrible weather, which is actually pretty similar to Chicago, where I now live. Yeah. Oh, okay. Because of that, you know, it has a reputation of producing the toughest, hardest cyclists on the planet. So that's why it's uh the fact that it the weather is so terrible is kind of like what brings people there who are interested in cycling and cycling history.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Are there a lot of hills? Like what is it that makes them the the weather itself, like uh snow, rain, cold?

SPEAKER_05 2:14

Yeah, so they have these things called bergs.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

So berg, how do you spell burg?

SPEAKER_04 2:20

BRG.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:21

Oh, just like my main Mathsberg. Yeah, and I think it I think it originally means town, but these are the names of these very, very, very steep cobbled stone hills. So Belgium is not flat, especially Flanders and the Ardennes. What they have is they have um, you you see as you see the unfolding farmland um around you, which is just absolutely gorgeous. You see these rises and these plateaus, and every time there's no way to get up to that plateau or that rise without going up something that's like, you know, like the toughest ones are like 25% grade. Oh my goodness. Oh wow. Um, and they've got these really rough cobblestone pavers on them. And they're just old farm roads. I mean, they're they're used, they're used and they're maintained. Um, so they're they could be a lot worse. They started doing it in the 19th century, and um they've just become these really super famous places in history where you know, based on how uh based on how how tough you are, you can actually make it up these very, very steep, very slippery climbs, you know. I mean, think about like the wind and the rain and the mud and the dirt and okay. And you're saying this is an attraction? It is. I guess people want to do like challenge. No, I'm not so I know I'm not supposed to talk too much about cycling, but oh that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

But I would say if you're doing that, you are best. Like if you it would be a walk in the park to do something, like just a regular cycling if you've accomplished Belgium. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And um, um it's very popular, like uh, you know, old ladies, little kids, you know, you see these like little boys just riding their bicycles, you know, and they're like doing tricks and stuff. Like they're trying to see how long they could ride on just their rear wheel with like their front wheel up in the air. Yeah. But like you just see small boys with like better, better, you know, bicycle handling skills than anyone in America. On the cobblestone, on the cobblestone. Everything. The cobblestones, the the dirt. Um, it's just it's in their DNA, you know, and it's to them, it's like baseball is in America or football in America.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Oh, okay. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 4:45

Um and that's the thing about the the Belgians is is they're all fans, like kind of like football in America. So the the tour of Flanders um happened on the the I think April 1st. Oh and two million people will come out. Oh wow to watch that bike race. There's not very many people in the entire country. Yeah. So um, I mean, it is like everyone they're out there and they are drinking from 9 a.m.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

in the morning the time they go home. Like Oktoberfest. Would they have a beer and a chocolate? I think of Belgian chocolates. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:22

Yeah. Well, probably they'd probably more be more likely to have a beer and fries and free. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because like I'm just saying that looking at the um where it is in relation to London. So I feel like Netherlands is super popular and Paris is Paris is super popular, but it just Belgium's not, I don't hear about people going there as much, but it seems like it's right in between those two places.

SPEAKER_04 5:43

And why would you can really make a wonderful trip by combining either Belgium and France or Belgium and the Netherlands? Um, it's definitely worth a look. This is a picture from the Cycling Museum in Audenarde, but this is the Copenberg.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Oh, wow. Oh, what a beautiful picture.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

Yeah. Oh, and that's cobblestone, yeah. That's that's the Copenberg. It's the most famous, it is the most difficult. Looks like it's raining. I kind of hate it. It's called the Flounders.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

This is deep in Flanders, yep. Flanders, I think. Okay, listeners will we'll post this on Instagram.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Yeah, it looks like a it's narrow. It's not very like you dad, you're getting one car on that road. You're not getting one lane. Yeah, it's one lane road, lots of uh, and it's a great picture of uh like a like a whole bunch of bice cyclists going up the cobblestone, and it looks like there's raincoats on some of the people. So I can imagine it's slippery and wet, and then I there's a big space and some people in the distance trying to catch up to that group.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

I I promise you, every single one of these spectators is drinking beer. Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Well, I see this yellow jacket right here, and he looks like he's got one arm up and another arm down. So every single one of them, I'm sure. That's a great picture. Did you take that picture?

SPEAKER_04 7:10

No, I I took a picture of this picture in the cycling museum. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

That's really in uh yeah. That's incredible. So I know cycling is what brings you there. That's what brought us there the first time.

SPEAKER_04 7:24

But you know, I I grew up in Europe and the weather and the the greenery and kind of like that like sort of damp, cold smell of the earth and the old like medieval buildings and the churches, it's what I remember about growing up in Austria. And Belgium has that same thing to it. I know that there's a lot of differences between the two countries, but once you've been to like a medieval town or

Flanders In The Rain And Race Day

SPEAKER_04 7:56

a medieval city that's kind of in that same um that same climate zone, you know, kind of lots of rain, lots of green stuff, you know, a little cooler. It just makes me feel like I'm home. And since we keep coming back there, we have just made the most wonderful friends. And we feel like we have family there. We really do. What town do you stay in? We stay in the town of Holse. It's spelled R-O-N-S-E.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

R-O-N-S-E. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 8:31

And it is uh probably most famous for cycling. However, what we found was this little beautiful city. It's only about 14,000 people live there, and of course, it has like, you know, five medieval cathedrals in it. I see cathedral. I'm looking at that. And um it's right on the border of Wallonia and Flanders, so right on the border of the kind of the French countryside and the Flemish speaking countryside. And so in Rolse, they speak both languages. They speak both French and Flemish fairly normally. I mean, technically they they should most places in Belgium speak both languages, but in reality, that's not quite true. If you're deep in Flanders, they uh they probably can speak French, but they don't really want to. And then in Wallonia, they will typically speak French all the time. So here you have both languages, and it's an old industrial city that was really suffering in the 50s and 60s and 70s, and then it had a revival by people moving in, a lot of artists, a lot of musicians. It's known for being one of the few places in Europe where there are a substantial amount of Muslim immigrants who get along really well with the townspeople.

SPEAKER_03 9:49

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 9:50

Um, there isn't any, and it's not like Lille, maybe, or Roubaix that you might have heard of, where there's just kind of a lot of animosity and like conflict between the recent comers who are um, you know, most of them devout Muslim and the the local Europeans, but in Hontse, um, you know, it's it's very well integrated. And so it's a really cool place. Like it this revival, it was sparked by the fact that that you could get like a house for really cheap. Um it's not quite so cheap anymore because it's kind of caught on, but it's um that's kind of what it's known for. So there's all these like kind of free spirits there, you know, artist types. Ghent is the cultural capital of Flanders, and so all of them like came from Ghent, like they all went to the University of Ghent, and um uh lots of lots of musicians, photographers, and just you know, really interesting people.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Is Flemish uh the Belgium Belgian language or uh Norman? It's Dutch. It's it's Dutch, duh yeah, duh. Okay, got it. I was like, which one is fair because isn't there something else that's Dutch too? Netherlands is Dutch, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:06

Yep, and so so Belgium speaks it, and then was Flanders its own country once upon a time?

SPEAKER_04 11:13

It's a complicated history.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Oh, okay. All right.

SPEAKER_04 11:16

They speak Flemish, they have always speak they have always spoken Dutch. Um there's like it's like a regional difference. Um they'll understand you if you speak um Nederland's Dutch, which is what they speak in in the the Netherlands. Um a few words are different, maybe some of the accents are different, um, some of the um like the local sayings and things like that are different, but um, but they'll absolutely understand you. But what happened was Belgium has a a very complicated, rich history um that involves a lot of invasion. You know, there was like a Duke of Liège that was always constantly warring, and he was French, and eventually the area was was mostly conquered by the French. And this did not go over well with the Flemish people. They still see French and Brussels as being kind of, we'll put it in American terms, the hoity-toity. Yeah, like like uh overlords that came in, like the ruling class, and kind of tried to tell them what to do, and they feel it kind of tried to kind of take away their culture. And so um, you know, Flemish nationalism has is is resurgent. Um, it has been since the beginning of the 20th century, and some of it has gotten a little bit violent and scary. Um, but most of it is driven by um the Flemish having a lot of pride in their history and their traditions, which go back, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of years. Like even I had heard of like the Flemish wool merchants in like medieval time, and I didn't really connect it to connect it to this area. So very, very, very uh proud people with a lot of history.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

I have to say Flemish and Belgium, I I didn't realize those. I don't and I'm I'm just being very naive. I didn't what where did Flemish uh because I'm I'm looking and it says Rons, uh is that how you pronounce it? Ronz? Ronza.

SPEAKER_04 13:23

Yeah, we learned the hard way that anything that ends in an E, you have to add an U. Like it's not Mikkelbeek, it's Mikelbeekah. It's not horbecca or orbeak, it's horbecca. So we've we've learned the hard way. Yeah, you always add an uh noise to the end of everything.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

There you go. Perfect. It sounds kind of French for sure. Uh Flemish, where did uh was yeah. What's Flemish? Like I didn't really even know what what that is and where that Belgium and Flemish come together.

SPEAKER_04 13:55

Well, it's it's Dutch. So the same people that settled the rest of the the Benelux countries by the shore there, the merchants, that was the the language that they uh that they came to speak. Yeah, it wouldn't be. They're the same.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Okay. Oh okay.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

There's very, very small variations.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah. Oh, okay. It's like a kind of like like uh our English versus like SoCal with the likes or Texas with the twang, like something like or more like the UK English versus US English?

SPEAKER_04 14:30

I think it's probably more like I think it's probably more like British English and American English.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Okay. Oh okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

So Fleming

Why Belgium Feels Like Home

SPEAKER_01 14:40

wasn't or Flemish, sorry. Flemish is that was it what did it used to be called there's always been Belgium, and then they spoke Flemish? Is that and Dutch?

SPEAKER_04 14:50

Well Belgium's a new country, uh cobbled together of three regions. Well, the Wallon region, which came to be inhabited by French peasants and farmers, Brussels, which was the French nobleman, and Flanders.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Okay, and Flanders is Fleming. Is that where that kind of ties into F the Fs. The Fs tie into each other.

SPEAKER_04 15:12

They speak Flemish and Flanders.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Oh my goodness. Oh, and there's learning so much.

SPEAKER_04 15:17

So how many languages are there? Oh, um, I speak French and I speak English. I speak uh a fair amount of Russian, and I'm trying very hard to learn Dutch.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Oh, you'll get it. You'll be a real European, four languages. Nice.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Unless it's a little um impressive, it gets a little hard. I have a tendency to start speaking in Dutch, and I'll end up the sentence in French with like maybe a Russian accent.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

So I try people like where would you focus on? You're like America? Australia.

SPEAKER_05 15:47

Remind me calling mock indeppies.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Yeah. Remind me again your Russian and how, because I know we were talking earlier at work, you get a ch a chance to use your Russian uh a couple times a week, but where did you learn Russian?

SPEAKER_04 16:00

In Russia. I lived there when I was 13 years old, and I studied at the University of St. Petersburg for a year in 1999.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Oh my gosh, that's a hard language. My uh co-worker, Ryan Gilmore, he knew Russian and I think he even studied it in college, but I I was like, say some say something in Russian because it sounds so different, right?

SPEAKER_04 16:24

Well, just the word hello in Russian

Ronse And Life On The Border

SPEAKER_04 16:26

is zrasputya. That's like one of the most difficult words to say.

SPEAKER_05 16:32

But um is that easier? Oh well, puka.

SPEAKER_04 16:37

Oh yeah, I mean you could say does you could say do, but that's more formal. That's like until we meet again.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Svidanya. Svidanya. I think I've heard that before.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

So the Russians say something where they don't want to say hi to people, but they definitely want to say bye to people. Just kidding.

SPEAKER_04 16:57

There is a I I don't know how to say it in Russian anymore, but there is a Russian saying that kind of sums it all up, which is today is better than yesterday, but tomorrow will be worse.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

So how does that how does it sound in in uh Russian?

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Oh, I'm not even sure how to s how to say that. I kind of said t tomorrow will be like the worst. I didn't really say it like in you know, like a kind of there, but something like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Yeah. So what about Dutch or Flemish? Say something in that. What does that sound like? That is definitely very different.

SPEAKER_04 17:48

It's very similar to German. In fact, the word Deutsch comes from the word Dutch. Dutch and Deutsch have the same origin.

unknown 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:58

Oh, interesting. So there's a lot of overlap with German.

SPEAKER_06 18:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:02

The grammar is not so uh not so demanding. For example, um, I'm learning that they don't really care about gender in Dutch. No. If for anyone who's learned French, you know it's just Russian's a little easier with the gender because uh words that are feminine tend to end in a and words that are masculine tend to end in consonants. But you know, like in French, you just have no idea. You're just guessing, right? You're just memorizing.

SPEAKER_06 18:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:30

Um so it makes it a little bit easier in some ways, but it's I think it's uh I think it's a it's a it's a very nice language. Yeah. Uh it it sounds very harsh. It sounds very harsh. The person who's teaching me Dutch, she's a colleague of mine um at Abvi in Chicago, and she's from the Netherlands, but she's from the south of the Netherlands. And so she has a much softer way of speaking. Like um, like, how are you or how goes it? Um she would say, um, who gaat it? And in Flemish, they might say, Who hat for example. I mean, I'm I I mean, I don't really know what I'm doing. I'm just learning, I'm a beginner, but yeah, like it's a little softer than the Flemish, they tend to really press those hooves. Oh yeah. Like uh one of the my favorite towns right around the same area, Ronsa, out in order, is called um Scarissa. But we have since learned that it's Skorissa. Skorissa.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

How are the people there in general? It sounds like you love it. Are they very warm and inviting?

SPEAKER_04 19:37

Yes, but not at first.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 19:39

So and I think that that is very similar to the Netherlands. Um and I've heard that about Germany too, but I've never I haven't spent a lot of time in Germany, so I d I I don't know. Yeah. Um my my dad has, and he says it's the same thing, where then you know, if you just pass somebody on the street, they won't even like look at you or say hello. But if they say you see you twice, they will talk to you. And if they see you three or four times, you know, you'll get invited to dinner, and then um after that, you know, you're their best friend. They're not like uh friendly to strangers kind of culture. It's not like in Greece where like you get on a bus and you get invited to like, you know, the guy sitting next to you's daughter's wedding or something. Um but that doesn't mean they're unfriendly, it just means that they're not friendly to strangers.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 20:28

Once you go over to someone's house, like that's kind of it.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yeah. Like then you're with your family. You're coming back. I was curious, you said you were looking at buying and and living there too. What's the just curious cost of a house?

SPEAKER_04 20:43

So we're looking at an apartment because the upkeep is so much easier. Uh, one of the things about a country where it rains 300 days a year, which is it does in Belgium. Um, you know, people talk about the rain, but they don't talk about necessarily like what that means in terms of just the proliferation of like life everywhere. Bugs and the upkeep and how hard it is to keep your garden like looking tidy. Um I can imagine. So uh we've been looking at apartments and the ones that are like kind of like on the top of the building with really nice views of the town, um, are about 200,000 euros. Okay. What does that translate to? Really fancy ones? Oh, about about it's about the same. Okay. Yeah. That's not too bad. And then a house like maybe 450,000 euros. So it's any more expensive than it was.

unknown 21:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:35

When I first started going to Belgium in 2017, you could still buy like a four bedroom apartment in Brussels looking at a palace for like 220,000 euros.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Oh wow, what a difference. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:46

That's a big difference in 10 years almost. But it's still I would consider it to be much more affordable compared to California or Chicago. Right. What do you think uh changed the pricing? I think the inflation over the last ten years. Okay. The Belgians are having a very difficult time, as are many Europeans right now, with the price of fuel, especially heating oil. Uh they were already really, really struggling with the war with Russia. Uh now with disruptions in Iran, their costs have like tripled or doubled.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:25

Their gas is very expensive.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

Yeah. Gas, food, groceries, everything is very expensive.

SPEAKER_04 22:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

I can imagine.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

But they use they really try to use those pellet stoves. Um that's like a new industry where it's supposed to be renewable, sustainable. They turn the wood into those little pellet things. They try to use those to to heat their homes.

SPEAKER_06 22:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

Because it's a little bit more it's a little bit more cost effective.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

It everything uh else is pretty straightforward in terms of like they have they, you know, the kitchens look like ours, like refrigerators, stoves, the uh I'm curious also, it's funny, in Sweden, all of the at the grocery store, everything's this was when I went there, so it's been 10 years, was uh a lot smaller sizes. Like there weren't gallons of milk, every it was quarts of milk and all the glasses

Flemish, French, And Belgian History

SPEAKER_01 23:18

were tan.

SPEAKER_04 23:20

Yeah, and also they don't re Americans have this obsession with uh refrigeration that they don't care about. Like the if you're looking in the refrigerator for the eggs and the milk, you're not gonna find it there.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Really? Milk. The eggs I could see. I leave my eggs out, but yeah, and butter I leave out, but not milk. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

So what's the typical meals and foods like there? I know with such the climate, it's cold and things like that. What grows there? What do they eat? What are typical meals?

SPEAKER_04 23:46

Oh, the farms are just absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. Um the whole landscape. I mean, it's just I mean, I love the smell of farms. Um, not everybody does.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

It depends. There's good smells and there's bad smells, right?

SPEAKER_04 24:03

Yeah, yeah. The kind of fertilizy smells get a little strong in some of the milking barns, but it's really famous for um used to be known for meat. So every almost every farm in Belgium would have, you know, pigs, usually pigs, yeah. Um, and beef. And they're transitioning a little bit more to dairy. Um, but the traditional meals, um, the one I wanted to talk about was my favorite, um, not not great for vegetarians. I would say that um Belgium, and if you're out in the the countryside, not easy for vegetarians.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

But good meat, that's probably not I don't want to say process and there's processed meat, but I'm sure it's very organic.

SPEAKER_04 24:50

It is, and it tastes different.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Is it gamey?

SPEAKER_04 24:55

Uh my husband thinks so. Okay. You know, he's a Midwestern boy. Yeah. So he really likes American hamburgers and sausages. There's like almost like a there's like a different taste to it. For me, I'm just like, oh, it's different. Um, and I I still like it. Uh I was also a vegetarian for 18 years, so it's like I'm just like, oh, it's fine. Yeah. Like, I'm like, why why is a normal hamburger better than a turkey burger? They taste both taste great to me.

unknown 25:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:30

Yeah. Um, but there's a there's a Flemish stew called Stovera. Uh-huh. Um S-T-O-V-E-R-I-J. Um, it's uh called different things, but it's uh like a traditional beef stew that is cooked very, very slowly in dark beer, dark Belgian beer. Oh wow. Um it's really good. And all your meals are served with like you get like a big old plate of french fries with all of them, and you have to ask for ketchup if you don't want mayonnaise on your french fries. Oh they won't put it on the french fries, they'll put it in like little dishes next to it. Uh-huh. Man, they love mayonnaise. Mayonnaise is like comes with everything, so you have to like be prepared for that.

SPEAKER_06 26:15

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_04 26:16

Like, if you do go to Burger King or McDonald's in Belgium, like there will be mayonnaise.

SPEAKER_06 26:21

A lot of interesting.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Oh, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

And what kind of veggies are good over there? Like really um, really hearty ones, like potatoes and kale. Um, I would say are the most traditional. They don't have like but because the farmland is so good, like there's a lot of tomatoes that are just delicious, their apples are amazing.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Um that part's sounds very gimme. I was also curious, like jobs and people's days, like how does that look? And are there a lot of people who who I don't know why this just popped up? People that own houses, do they rent houses?

SPEAKER_04 26:58

Um a lot of people own houses. Um, when you drive around, you feel like everybody there is incredibly wealthy. Oh. Because everybody has gorgeous houses and beautiful cars.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Oh wow, what are their cars?

SPEAKER_04 27:14

Uh mostly German. Okay. Wait, they're really, really they love their their BMWs, they love their Mercedes, they love their Porsche's. They're all so fancy and nice. I mean, even all the European brands, you know, the Peugeot's and the Dachias, and you know, they always have like super, super nice vehicles and houses. And so I kind of wondered about that, like, where's all this money coming from? You can live in these gorgeous, beautiful castles, and you've got, you know, every other person has a Porsche. Yeah. And uh someone explained to me that there's an expression, they call it married to the stone. So what it is is people tend to have beautiful houses and cars, but that's all they have. So all their money is in those two assets. So they don't have a retirement. So retirement, so Belgium has a pension scheme. Once you are eligible for your pension, most people we know are a little bit older.

SPEAKER_06 28:10

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

And what they tend to do is they tend to have small jobs. Um, and they use that with their pension. So cleaning houses. Uh, we know a lot of older people that like like a lot of the men will work on the weekends. Yeah. Um one of the the major employers in the area, other than all the beer makers, yes. Um is um, do you know the Biscotti cookies? The Lotus is the name of the company. Okay. The Lotus Factory is in Southeast Flanders in Belgium. Oh. So a lot of people work at the cookie company or the cookie factory on the weekends, um, just kind of pick up little odd jobs. A lot of them work in the markets. Okay. So our very good friend uh runs the butcher department of the German grocery store in town.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

When do people retire? Like what age do they typically retire?

SPEAKER_04 29:00

So my friend Grita, uh, we would say Greta in English, um, she just retired when I met her and she had turned 62. She was cleaning houses and like helping people with their gardens and stuff, and that's when she finally decided to to retire was with 62.

unknown 29:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

Wow. Is it like social security in the US here where we get exactly kind of our pension and then you depending if you want to work more, then you work more.

SPEAKER_04 29:29

And the the cost of living outside things like uh renovating your house um are is pretty low. Okay. Food the cost of food is very low. It was starting to go up the last time I was there, but we noticed when we were there in 2023, like inflation had not hit yet. It finally has a little bit.

SPEAKER_06 29:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:51

Um, but like a big, huge loaf of like the best bread you ever ate, every corner grocery store, two euros.

SPEAKER_06 29:59

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 29:59

Um, your traditional Belgian beer uh will be like maybe three, maybe four Euros to get like a big old draft, you know, 8.5% beer or something that would cost like $20 in the United States, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Right. Oh, that's fantastic. Uh the beer's really, really cheap. What are typical days look like um do and and activities-wise? I know there's cycling for sure. There are other things that Belgians like to do, uh hiking, outdoor things.

SPEAKER_04 30:28

No, they really they oh, everybody hikes on the weekends. Like there's these roving groups of people that um they have all these these hiking trails everywhere. I see them as like these like really muddy tracks that I'm like, don't want to ride my bike on.

SPEAKER_07 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

Um, and you just find these like huge crowds of people with their little trekking poles of like that gets in the rain every weekend. In the rain, oh yeah. Yeah, and they do like these really long distance hikes. Like a friend of mine in Brussels is is into it, and they'll do like, you know, like 20 kilometer hikes and things like that. A lot of people do like um those um uh pilgrimages where they rewalk the steps of like saints and things like that. Like there's a big one that goes right through Ronse um over Memorial Day weekend. A lot of people do that, like young people, like you know, teenagers with backpacks. And it it there's a religious, there's usually a religious theme. Um, Belgium is extremely Catholic. Yeah, and it's just wonderful. It's whole families, grandparents, little kids. The Belgian people are very active, they are always outside. Oh, I think I mean they don't they don't even have to be like serious cyclists, you know, they'll be out on their electric bikes.

SPEAKER_06 31:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:45

Um, there are a lot of smokers, especially in the countryside, so I'm not sure

Language Detours Into Russian And Dutch

SPEAKER_04 31:50

how good how how good their lungs are. So a lot of electric bikes. Yeah. Um, and uh people gather with their friends and their families every weekend in the cafes. Oh. They really, really enjoy life. Flanders is a little bit busier, more industrial, like not the area I hang out in, but like a lot of the big famous cities in Flanders are like, you know, known for being like, you know, very successful. Um, lots of manufacturing, lots of stuff where you probably have to get up really early and get to your job. Yeah. Um, but there's no way anyone would ever work past four o'clock, no matter what they were doing.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Oh, yes, I was wondering. That's big. So what time do they start and what time do they end? And do they have a lunch break and how long is that?

SPEAKER_04 32:34

The lunch break is probably two hours. Um, and I would say that they probably start at nine and end at four. Um the exception I'll make is for those factory jobs. I'm not sure about those. They might start a little earlier.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

So nine to four with a two-hour lunch.

SPEAKER_04 32:49

That seems about right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Five hours a day.

SPEAKER_04 32:52

Yeah. So you asked about breakfast. Breakfast isn't a thing, um, but lunch is a thing. Yeah, very often have beer or a glass of rose with your lunch. You see old women and old men in these squares outside these cathedrals, you know, at the little cafes, just sitting there drinking a big old tanker of of left, you know, at like 11 30 in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Oh my gosh, that's amazing. And then what time do they usually eat dinner?

SPEAKER_04 33:20

I would say probably 6 30. Okay. Yeah, and the countryside is different. Brussels is a proper city. Okay. So just like everywhere else, you can Yeah. And you know, and and and the French all famously love to eat late dinners and we've been talking about Flanders, Southeast Flanders, what they call the Flemish Ardennes, but it is worth discussing the actual Ardenne too before I go. Then it's in Wallonia, it's in the eastern portion of the country. You can look it up on a map, and um there are some spectacular castles and fortresses in that part of the world. There is a river called the River Meuse, M-E-U-S-E. And um, there are all these medieval towns. We lived in the little village of Dove, next to Namur, in the French area, for about 30 days when we first got to Belgium. And right down the river, and of course, there's a bike path all along the river. You can drive for probably all the way to France. In that section, there is a town called Dinantes. How do you spell it? D-I-N-A-N-T. And there is the citadel of Dinant, and there is also a cathedral there. You have to imagine um a deep, deep river with these massive limestone cliffs on each side and these castles built into the cliffs on either side.

SPEAKER_06 34:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 34:48

This was all to keep out the French ostensibly. Clearly, they lost in the French one. And they are just they're beautiful. And it is also the birthplace of Adolf Sax. And Adolf Sax invented the saxophone. Oh, the Saxon. Oh, obviously. Yes, it sounds like the saxophone.

SPEAKER_05 35:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:08

It's amazing. Like there's um even like a word denandary, like after the name of the town, to talk about this like really elaborate, beautiful metalwork from the Middle Ages. Wow. It is really beautiful. And in the hills, somewhere around that area, it also is Lef, the original monastery of Lef, where the most famous beer from Belgium comes from. They don't make it in the monastery anymore, but they like to say that it's from like 1240 when the the abbey of Lef was was founded and they started making that beer.

SPEAKER_06 35:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 35:41

Um, there's a a castle called the Castle of Broken Hearts, and there's this one tower remaining, and apparently there were like two ladies and two men that were like the only people left in the castle that were still alive in this tower when the the French were attacking, and they threw themselves off the tower rather than you know fall prey to the evil French. Oh wow. And you can, I mean, it's it's not even really a that's like a grassy parking lot. Like there's no like tourist, like you know, there's no souvenir store. Yeah, it's just it's just there in the wild. You just find these things everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Thank you so much. This is so fun. I really love learning more. And uh, it's like just a teaser for more, right? Of Belgium. It's like watching this makes me want to come and go. Yeah, it's always shocking like how much there is to see everywhere. So I have my rapid fire questions to wrap up. Um so lunch. So we're gonna skip breakfast. There's no breakfast generally. So um, but to be able to have coffee or tea?

SPEAKER_05 36:47

Or just a like a little bit of bread.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Oh, okay. All right. Sounds very like I think I heard that in the Netherlands also. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 36:54

Oh, we in the Netherlands too, I think. Yeah, like you just have like maybe a piece of cheese and like a piece of bread and so what is a popular lunch then? Yeah, you know what they are crazy about there, and they eat more than they eat in Italy is spaghetti.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_04 37:09

Okay. Every single restaurant, every single one, will have spaghetti and spaghetti bonus and have a vegetarian version.

SPEAKER_06 37:19

That's funny.

SPEAKER_04 37:20

And um, like pasta and salad and sandwiches are really, really popular. Very heavy on the mayonnaise. Totally. My daughter will be happy. She's a mayo girl.

SPEAKER_06 37:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:33

Um, they have these little meat called meatballs. In French, they're called boulettes. Um, and I think they're made from pork. They seem pretty healthy, they taste pretty healthy. And they like will put chop those up and put them on a sandwich. But if you just go to like the your grocery store at lunchtime and like go to like the pre-made sandwiches, if you're prepared for mayonnaise, you're gonna end up with like an amazing sandwich with like um kip curry is a big one. Kip means chicken in the uh this is fish. So yeah, like kip curry sandwiches. They use a lot of paprika, like I said, a lot of mayonnaise, um, a lot of fresh herbs, a lot of like spring pea kind of stuff, you know. Lots of uh like really interesting, fascinating types of lettuce, and they really like their dark green. So that's typically what they have for lunch with their beer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Always beer. That's how they feel this ongoing theme. Are people like drunk a lot or just they have high tolerance?

SPEAKER_05 38:33

Well I've definitely seen it.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

I bet they don't have a lot of anti-anxiety drugs, huh? Because everyone drinks their beer at a chill.

SPEAKER_04 38:42

Exactly. I have uh, yeah, my the friends that we're friends with. I mean, granted, we did meet at a we did end up becoming friends because we met at a bar. And most people they just have like one or two. If you go to a restaurant and order a beer, like they'll just bring you one. They're not gonna come like the second, like, you know, like your glasses below the half the 50%. You're ready for another one? Okay, ready for another one. Like, they don't do that at all. In fact, it's really hard to find your waiter or wait tr waitress. Ober, uber in Dutch. You can just like apparently just yell uber, and like they're supposed to come. But like I can never we you can never find them.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_04 39:22

Like it's very different than America. Like, you will get like your one beer when you get in, and if you want a second one, they might look at you a little funny. And if you get

People, Friendships, And Buying A Home

SPEAKER_04 39:31

a third one, there might be like even some comments underneath their breath.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

Oh alrighty, and then how many people get around? Like, if you were to I mean, one, when you go there a long stay, do you like rent a car for a long time or is there public transport or rent a car for the countryside of Belgium, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Okay, what side of the street?

SPEAKER_04 39:49

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Right side.

SPEAKER_04 39:51

Right side. There are crazy driving rules, and like you guys saw that picture of the Copenberg, right? Like Americans just have no idea what to do because every road, like outside the major like little arteries, um, is only has space for one car. Okay and it will be miles and miles and miles long. Like it's scary even on a bicycle, like when a car comes. And if you can imagine like Americans paying that much attention, I mean like Americans are just like, I'm in my vehicle, I'm in my fortress, I'm follow- I don't care what's going on over there, over there, over there, over there. I'm just doing my thing. I stop at the red light, I go on the green light. Like, there's no stoplights, that's all rotaries, you have to pay a lot of attention, and people will just zip out right in front of you when you're on the street because Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:37

But what about say if you go for just a week? And I guess Brussels, you probably be fine without a car.

SPEAKER_04 40:41

If you're going to the countryside, you need to have okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Countryside car.

SPEAKER_04 40:45

Okay. You would I mean it'd be great to take a train. Um, but the reality is is that like uh on the weekend there might only be like two or three trains and you might end up waiting two or three hours to try to like it'll take you like five hours or something. And it's a 45-minute drive.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 41:01

So yeah, you need a car in the countryside. You do not need one in Brussels. The public transportation in the city is a fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Awesome. Very good. And then how how would you recommend working money? Like, do you exchange any money while you get there or just everything digital? Was it super high tech? Even in the countryside?

SPEAKER_04 41:19

Even in the countryside.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Oh, okay. Sweet. All right. And then our final question like closest place to surf because we like to surf in the ocean, but we know that it's probably freezing.

SPEAKER_04 41:28

Is that yeah, well the beach is uh the beach is beautiful, but it's very, very windy. Everything you've heard about like D-Day and Normandy.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Belgium's right next to that.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

Oh okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

So there would be surf. It's just yeah, cold. Like Ireland.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Cold.

SPEAKER_04 41:48

Yeah, yeah. It's the English, not quite the English channel, but yeah, it's not warm. It's not warm. Um it does get it does get warm in Belgium in the summer. Like it goes to the low 80s quite frequently, and there's no air conditioning anywhere. So you should be careful of that. Like always look for a fan.

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Yeah, okay. Okay, and so yeah, with no screens.

SPEAKER_04 42:09

You just get used to it. No deed allowed. You have this like stuff that doesn't work. And yeah, you just spiders, mosquitoes, yeah. They're just part of your life.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

All right. Well, thanks, Marianne.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

So nice to see you again and uh sharing uh your passion for Belgium. Send me pictures. I love your pictures that you send me.

SPEAKER_04 42:29

I'll send you pictures from our last trip.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Okay, perfect. Thank you so much for this. I really appreciate it. I'm so glad we got a chance to make it work. Um, yes, thank you so much and have a great weekend. Yeah, you too. And let's be in touch. Absolutely. Okay, talk to you soon. See you. Thank you. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the podcast, can you please take a second and do a quick follow of the show and rate us in your podcast app. And if you have a minute, we would really appreciate a review. Following and rating is the best way to support us. If you're on Instagram, let's connect. We're at where next podcast. Thanks again.