Where Next? Travel with Kristen and Carol
Where Next? Travel with Kristen and Carol
Yosemite National Park, California - Discover the Magic with Kristen
Yosemite National Park captivates millions of visitors annually with its towering granite monoliths and thundering waterfalls, but few experience it with the intimate knowledge of someone who returns multiple times each year. In this special episode, Carol interviews Kristen about her profound connection to this natural wonder in California's Sierra Nevada mountains.
Kristen shares her annual January ritual of hiking to Upper Yosemite Falls, revealing how winter transforms the park into a surreal landscape where waterfall spray freezes mid-air, creating magnificent snow cones at the base. She guides listeners through accommodation options ranging from the historic luxury of The Ahwahnee Hotel ($600/night) to free backcountry camping, with plenty of moderate choices between.
The conversation unveils a little-known opportunity for budget travelers: volunteering with the Sierra Club at the Heritage Center provides a free week-long stay with just four hours of light work daily as a docent. With two consecutive days off mid-week, volunteers can explore extensively while contributing to the park's educational mission.
For first-time visitors, Kristen recommends easily accessible experiences like the five-minute walk to Bridalveil Falls, the reflective beauty of Mirror Lake, or the drive to Glacier Point for panoramic valley views without strenuous hiking. More adventurous listeners will appreciate her insights on backpacking routes from Tuolumne Meadows in the north to Chilnualna Falls in the south, plus practical advice on navigating the permit system for coveted Half Dome hikes.
Throughout the episode, Kristen's passion for Yosemite shines through as she describes nighttime views of climbers' headlamps dancing like fireflies on El Capitan's face and the perpetual white noise of waterfalls creating what she calls a "surreal" and "magical" atmosphere. Whether you're planning your first visit or your fifth, this episode offers both practical guidance and the inspiration to experience Yosemite's magnificence in every season.
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Hosts
Carol Springer: https://www.instagram.com/carol.work.life
Kristen: https://www.instagram.com/team_wake/
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Hi, welcome to our podcast when Next Travel with Kristen and Carol. I am Kristen and I am Carol, and we're two long-term friends with a passion for travel and adventure. Each episode we interview people around the globe to help us decide where to go next. Hi, this is Carol, and today's episode we're going to do something a little bit different. I will actually be interviewing Kristen about Yosemite. Yosemite is a national park in Central California that Kristen loves and adores. She visits it at least once a year and she'll tell you why and the best times to go and some of her favorite features in the park. Enjoy, this one is really special. Today I'm going to interview this is Carol. I'm going to interview Kristen about Yosemite, which is a national park in California. So, kristen, thank you and tell us what. Interview Kristen about Yosemite, which is a national park in California. So, kristen, thank you, and tell us what you love about Yosemite. Oh, my gosh.
Speaker 1:Well, the first thing because I do it every January is hike up to the top of Upper Yosemite Falls. So I go in January and it's just sort of like a thing, a little treat to myself to kick off the year. I go for a weekend and hike up all over the place. I just go straight up, so all day. So January, isn't there snow in January? Yeah right, so it's a deep canyon and so it's just surreal how beautiful it is. So at one side because it's kind of a deep canyon and there's snow on the bottom and it just depends on the year but one side is shaded and one side sunny typically. I mean, of course it's kind of a deep canyon and there's snow on the bottom and it just depends on the year, but one side is shaded and one side's sunny typically. I mean, of course it's sunny. So when you're coming into the valley, the right side tends to have a lot more snow and then the left side, where Upper Yosemite Falls is, is more sun. So in areas it's still patchy snow, but then other areas you're just, you know, going. So when I go hiking up to the top of Upper Yosemite Falls, I bring snow boots and like yacht tracks, and then boots as well, and I just have a backpack with my snacks, water stuff, and then I swap, depending on as I hit it, if I need shoes or snow boots.
Speaker 1:Okay, and let's just back up a little bit. So where is Yosemite? It's in California, but you want to like how? How do you get there? Like from either Los Angeles or the San Francisco area, I mean from the Bay area where I live in Concord. It's like three, three and a half, sometimes four hours, depending on probably. I think it's like five or six hours. Malay, I think it's like five or six hours of ballet, I think, something like that. Okay, that's kind of in the middle, in the mountains, it's beautiful, okay.
Speaker 1:And do you camp overseas? If you go for a weekend, are you backcountry camping or do you stay at a cabin? How do you manage that? Do you stay at a hotel and do day hikes? So in the winter, some of my trips I've done sort of last minute and so I just sort of call and it's a gamble on what's available and what room. So twice I've actually gotten the Iwani, which is crazy and that's their really fancy hotel. One year I got like my own cabin and the other year I got the hotel and then, yeah, and then I stayed at Yosemite Lodge, stayed there before too. In the winter I stay kind of inside, I don't camp, and then the summertime when I stay there I camp. Okay, and do you do back country camping when you stay there then or just like in the, like camping in the winter, in the summer, summertime. So summertime I do backpacking usually. Oh, wow, okay.
Speaker 1:And then tell us about the. How much does that cost? You said the one's fancy like what would be a normal, like rate card for that. Oh, it can all depend. Like you know, car camping and those kinds of things is is a lot cheaper, and I mean, like the Iwani is really expensive. You know it can be Like 500 bucks a night, 200? I don't know. Be like 500 bucks a night, 200. No, it was like 600 a night something. Oh, my goodness, oh, wow, okay, yeah. So and and you know you're kind of like it's a historic hotel. It's over a hundred years old. I should have done my homework, like some of the guests do, and like have all my ducks in a row and talk about the Iwani, although I'm on a little sleep right now. That's okay. Yeah, it's a gorgeous hotel. Actually, right now they're renovating it for the last year, I think, or so.
Speaker 1:So the others are, you know, it's over $200. It's not cheap, okay, in the summertime there's Housekeeping Camp, which is the cheapest. There's Curry Village, which is probably the second cheapest. Cheapest. There's Curry Village, which is probably the second cheapest, and then the Yosemite Lodge, that's probably the next tier up, and then the Iwani, and then, of course, the cheapest is, of course, camping. If you backpack, then that's actually the cheapest and you get to stay the night before and the night after your trip for free in backpacking camp. Oh, very cool. And so like, if a cabin, so someone's not a camper, what's like the least expensive cabin? It's still like a hundred bucks a night. Oh, it's more than that. Oh, really, yeah, it's typically kind of pricey just in terms of them. I don't know if they're really making money, but just to maintain Yosemite, it's, you know, I just figure I'm donating my money to Yosemite to keep it going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the how do you call the Awani? The Awani, awani Is it? If someone doesn't stay there, is it cool just to visit? Is it that unique where you gotta like, take a look at it? Did you ever see the shining, the movie? Right? So I think there's. You know that hotel. There's aspects like I want to say like the elevator room, uh, or the. The elevator, sorry, not a little room, I feel like the elevator was in the movie or something. And then the dining room is just this gorgeous, amazing dining room. It's just, it's breathtaking. So I mean even going for a meal or for drinks because they have like this little restaurante bar area when you can right on the left of the lobby, and then they have like some outdoor seating and tables so you can, you know, go right outside. They have a pool there. It's just gorgeous, it's totally breathtaking, totally worth it.
Speaker 1:Oh, nice, I remember the trees. I was there once. The trees were like really, really huge. The redwoods Are there a lot of redwoods there? Yes, yeah, there are. I mean, there are what is it, mariposa? Tall redwoods that are in a couple different areas in Yosemite Valley that are gorgeous and, yeah, very tall trees, and then there's just the regular on the valley floor. Okay, and then the main attraction I was seeing was hiking right and climbing. Climbing is a really big thing, because El Cap is like world class. So is there always someone up there? Well, it tends to be, I don't know, I'm sure in the winter. Yeah, maybe not in the winter, probably not. Then let's see. In May I was there also.
Speaker 1:So I also volunteer for the Sierra Club and so I helped this year with the Heritage Center. So it's the oldest and of course I could rattle off all the numbers and now I can't, but it was, like you know, built in the early 1900s and it was the first visitor center. John Muir was actually, I believe, the first president of the Sierra Club, so we were there in May and I camped. So the nice thing about it if you volunteer with Sierra Club you get to stay for a week for free and arrive on like Saturday, and they train you Saturday, sunday, you kind of work a little bit or something, if I'm remembering, and then you have two days off, monday and Tuesday. So I could go on a backpacking trip. I could go which I did, go hiking to the top of Upper Yosemite Falls, and then you work Wednesday, thursday, friday, saturday and then Friday night and I think even Saturday night they have like a really cute in the Heritage Center, some sort of like music thing or kids event or something like that. It's really nice.
Speaker 1:And what kind of work do you do when you're volunteering? And just before I forget, so in May when I was camping and I was looking up on the rocks or just, you know, the cliffs, I could see headlights, so people were climbing in May. That's what made me think of it. Oh, my goodness, that was really cool. And then the kind of work that we do is just docents to welcome people to Yosemite and the Heritage Center, and there's a lot of material in there. It's kind of like a library with lots of knowledge and lots of learning and it's pretty fun.
Speaker 1:Oh, I thought you were gonna be like making trails or something like hard labor. No, no, no, no. Heritage Center it's like and it's gorgeous inside. It was moved. Actually it was in Curry Village and then, when they were expanding Curry Village, they actually moved the building. Well, actually they rebuilt the building, but they took the roof and I think they moved the roof and it's actually not even perfectly on. You can see where it's on, but you know there's some you can also tell it's not on, it's off a little bit, Okay.
Speaker 1:So I'm just thinking, especially like, for people that have a very flexible schedule, this sounds amazing to just go spend a week there, volunteer. You're going to meet tons of people, probably from all over the world. Yes, you do. Free lodging the whole week. Yep, oh my God, how did like you have to apply to do this? How did you? Yes, I did have to apply. I had to apply, and then it took a year plus year-ish or so, okay, and then, yeah, well, and it was also just because they had all of their spots filled for that year, and so then I had to interview and be selected for the following year. Oh, okay, so if someone wants to do that now, so like as an empty nest, or maybe I don't do that in a few years, like apply now, and so then once you apply, is it just for one year or now you're in their volunteer queue? I am in their volunteer queue. They actually just said, like, when do you want to come? And my son is graduating high school next year, so I haven't given them an actual date yet and so I'll slip in at some time. I just can't figure out the date. And do you have to commit to doing one week a year? Then moving forward? It's just whatever, Just do it when you can, and then, and maybe if you don't do something for many years, they'll be like stop it, Just go away. Awesome.
Speaker 1:It was really neat because her mom was there and then there were a lot of retired folks and what was interesting is there's sort of like this. I don't know, I didn't realize this. But you know how I'm volunteering and I get to stay for free. Well, there's all the national parks or like campgrounds and things, and her mom actually just does that and they're retired and they go and stay at different campgrounds. So it's like they, you know, kind of take care of like a caretaker, and then they just travel and I'm like, wow, that sounds pretty sweet. Yeah, so I have not looked into that. And when you work, are you working eight hours a day for those three days? No, no, no, no, it's like four hours, I think that's it. And so there's two shifts of four hours and we just cover each other. Oh, okay, yeah, and it's to be like, you know, a mom and we have our companies and there's so much going on and it's just like to sit there for four hours.
Speaker 1:It was just blissful People and just hang out and talk, and then I it's funny how you don't I don't know If somebody is a really it doesn't seem big, but it's big Like just walking back to our campsite or kind of biking. Also. It's like, you know, it's a good walk and bike just to and from places to get a little exercise, but it was just, it's gorgeous, it was just so. The weather was beautiful. Actually, right before I came I actually came directly from a wake surf competition and literally finished there and got in the car. But there was a huge one of the coldest storms that we'd had in May and they said don't come yet, stay overnight where you're at because there's so much snow. They sent a picture and so it was really cold and snowy and then it warmed up but it was okay.
Speaker 1:And so someone that maybe is not a huge fan of snow me when is the best time of year to go, miss Colorado, afraid of the snow? I know, I'm not afraid of it, I just don't have fond of it. Yeah, exactly, I didn't mean to say that Best time to go, and in the summer it can get really hot as well. So I mean I think the fall is probably the best time where it's not too hot and not too cold. In the spring, with the flowers, they're really pretty. If you go, you know hiking and things, you know it just depends on the year, but the summers also they're so awesome, they're warm.
Speaker 1:I know I kind of bop around a lot because it's like one of my favorite places ever to go. So I like, when I get there and if I have an evening, I'm like, okay, I'm going to go hike up to Mirror Lake, which has a reflection of Half Dome, so I'll go hike up there and come back. And then I'm like, oh, I want to go to check out Bridal Veil Falls. So I'll check that out, because they redid that and that was really pretty. So there's, you know, all these falls around, and then I don't really go to Lower Yosemite Falls. So I was like, oh, I want to go check that out, because I'm usually in upper Yosemite Falls. Oh, you really know this place. Oh, I go there a lot, like probably two to three times a year. So I'll go check out that and just see what it looks like and if it's different.
Speaker 1:And then, you know, at nighttime I'll go to El Cap, which is the best, because you can see all the headlamps and you just look up at the stars and you see all the people climbing. So people climb in the night. Oh yeah, oh yeah, you know. I mean, there's a lot of portal ledges that are up. Do people, like, sleep up there? I think I've seen that, like in pictures. Yeah, but you can see people climbing, or maybe that's a portal edge, it's dark, so it's like it's almost like fireflies, yeah Right, like, yeah, yeah, you know, be a fireflies one that you see at night, yeah, okay, and so that's. It sounds so cool. So, oh, what's the elevation? Oh gosh, I'll find it, I mean, but you're like it is, you know, it's definitely higher up, right, because if it snows a lot, it doesn't snow where you are typically, so it must be maybe like 3,000, 5,000. It is 4,000. 4,000. Okay, interesting.
Speaker 1:And then you're like pretty fit, I would say, as far as like being able to hike. So someone that maybe doesn't hike a lot, like what's a good beginner trail, mirror Lake. So the road after Curry is not really open really for traffic as much. So I mean, there is one when you pass Curry Village, you go down a street that has a parking lot, a bigger parking lot, but most of the time people just at that there's like I, you know, has a parking lot, a bigger parking lot, but most of the time people just at that there's like I don't know, like some sort of like gate or not a gate, but just something in the street that you kind of walk from that point and you can walk from there to the Mist Trail. So that's in the back corner on the right side, and that takes you to Nevada and Vernal Falls and that actually is the trail that leads up to Half Dome.
Speaker 1:So if people wanted to go to Half Dome, you have to get a permit, of course, and they're really hard to get, but you can get like a same-day permit. Sometimes that's even easier. Okay, well, how about just going to the park in general? I mean, obviously you have to get lodging arranged. Do you have to have a permit just to go hiking in the park, or is it just a date? Well, I know, after four o'clock you don't need it, so you can just go through, because I don't think anyone's at the gate and you can just get on in and go and do whatever.
Speaker 1:But and if you aren't as active I mean, driving around is really beautiful as well, oh, okay, you know, when you get to Brideville Creek sorry, brideville Falls it's kind of the very first fall that you run into and I mean you park in the parking lot, you walk like five minutes maybe, oh okay, and you're like, oh, there it is, and you can then go drive down and you know there's kind of one road in and one road out and kind of in the middle it makes another little loop so you'd have to go all the way out. But if you miss that and you have to go, I've had this happen all the time, even this last visit, where you're like, oh, shoot, so I'd have to drive all the way out and then go all the way back in the way out and then all the way back in. But yeah, like for easy folks, I would say Bridal Oak Creek, mirror Lake, you can go and kind of view from sort of the middle where El Capitan is, and then that will also take you to Lower Yosemite Falls. So Lower Yosemite Falls would be those three are super easy. I okay, and is half dome the only one that requires a special permit that you know? So yeah, I mean, unless you're going to climb l cap, but for the okay, like regular person. So you do need a um, like a backpacking pass for l cap, and then you do need a permit for half dome, which is kind of hard to get in advance. Oh, okay, got it. So if you want to do it like, oh, it's a lottery, okay, go on. Gosh, okay, have you done it recently? I've tried every time and I I don't get it.
Speaker 1:I did do it in the my 20s. That was a lot of fun. I did it with a um camp called sky, like yosemite camp, and we took a whole bunch of kids up there. Oh, my goodness, yeah, I did that once, I think was also my 20s. It was so scary, like there was like these ropes at the top. You're like, if I let go of this rope, I'm dead. You know, I see why they limit. Yeah, no, when you're going there's, you know, the cables and then those wood planks that are you kind of like, yeah, it was amazing how, because of the granite, you're not slipping. You know you're just on the rock and it's doable. Yeah, it is. It's like, yeah, amazing, all right, well, gosh, if anyone has any questions, just reach out to us. There's the text, us in the podcast and we'll answer any questions.
Speaker 1:Or you know, if you need any tips on Yosemite, it is an amazing place and hopefully maybe someday, kristen, I mean, you've arranged trips for your friends right in the past. Yeah, absolutely. So maybe make something public sometime, yeah, and I'd say more about Half Dome is interesting If you did get an opportunity and you wanted to backpack and climb Half Dome. You would go out of the Mist Trail up past Vernal and Nevada Falls I can't remember which comes first and then there's Little Yosemite Valley and that's where you would backpack. There's a nice stream there and then you would kind of leave your tent there and then you would go towards Half Dome and we called it Quarter Dome where it's like all these stair steps that you go and it takes a long time. But you go up that and then you get to where you can climb you know Half Dome and see that. And then you would come back down camp in Little Yosemite Village or, I'm sorry, little Yosemite Village, maybe that is what it's called and then the next day go down to Curry Village again. So it's a nice little weekend if you were able to get those passes Right and you have some beautiful pictures of Half Dome and probably El Capitan.
Speaker 1:So we'll have to post this on the internet. So check out Instagram at we're Next podcast for the beautiful pictures of Yosemite. I almost said Yellowstone. Yellowstone is in Montana, right? Yeah, absolutely Well. And also if backpacking because we didn't even talk about the backpacking aspects, because I've done a lot there. So there's a lot of really good backpacking there, obviously.
Speaker 1:And then there's like to the very north, there's Tuolumne, meadows and that has like Glen Allen and Waterwheel and lots of really neat things. And then to the south, chilnawana Falls out of Wawona And's beautiful. It's very steep but very beautiful. And then there's arches, lakes in the back and lots of really pretty vistas back there. And then I've also done just right from Old Tunnel Road. Actually I didn't mention that. Old Tunnel Road is a great place. You can just drive to and you just step out and the view you see of all Yosemite Valley with Half Dome, it's really pretty, oh, wow.
Speaker 1:And also backpack from there, which I did. I didn't realize you could do that, but you go straight up and I went to Dewey Point, which is across from El Cap on the other side, so you can see El Cap at night, and go all the way to Bridalveil Creek, all the way to another place called Glacier Point and that would be a beautiful location for someone who may be not active but would like to kind of get a view. So you're almost you're on the valley floor, you go through Old Tunnel Road and you go almost like you're going out of the park towards Wilwona and then you'll see the signs for Glacier Point, which is to the left, and that is like you're on the top of the world. It's the most gorgeous view and my first backpacking trip with my kids was from Glacier Point and we went to Bridal Boat Creek and I made it just super fun and easy and just did like you know a couple miles a day for a couple days and lots of hot chocolate, oh, very good. Okay.
Speaker 1:So a couple of rapid fire questions. What is it? What kind of breakfast do you eat when you're camping? I'm a big granola fan With milk or like a granola bar, like granola with milk, but we don't have milk. You know, I just kind of sometimes I did bring powdered milk or um, and then we do apple cider or hot chocolate, I do tea, stuff like that. I've also made these really like healthy kind of pancake things that are tightly, you know, like my girlfriend and I we made that and we had those for breakfast and lunch and they're like egg whites and greek yogurt and, uh, bran and stuff like, and so we just made those for because we went out of Tuolumne and ended up in Curry, like we kind of did the back country and that was just an easy, fun thing to eat. And what's a good size hike for you Like? If you're like I want to hike today, are you hiking like five miles, two miles, five miles, five miles, that's a good one With elevation right. Five miles, five miles, that's a good one With elevation right. Of course, yes and no, mostly yes, okay, got it.
Speaker 1:And then do you like absolutely stay away from there on the weekends? Or is it like, oh, to go to Yosemite? Yeah, is it like madness on the weekends and you try to go during the week, or is it just so big you don't notice? Well, the things that I do it doesn't matter, because you know, for the folks that are just there to kind of drive around, it can get really busy on the weekends and it can get really ugly. I typically go off of those days. So I personally don't and sadly I usually am working like crazy and then I'm like trying to get all the stuff in the car and usually when I get to Yosemite it's after four. It's usually sometimes nine or 10 at night. So I have a problem. There's never traffic. Oh, okay, very good. Okay, I go off times. Okay, very good, all right.
Speaker 1:And our other rapid fire questions aren't really so relevant for this, so I'll just leave it at that. Name one of them. Let's see what it says. Yeah, what kind of what's the money called? Like, how do you get into do that? Oh, yeah, dollars Transportation how do you? How do you get around? Well, that's actually Actually one thing we could talk about is the shuttle.
Speaker 1:Like, the shuttle system is really simple and easy. I mean, you can rent bikes. In the winter they have ice skating rinks so you can ice skate. So it's super cool. In Curry Village they have an ice skating rink and you can get hot chocolate. Also, in Curry Village they rent bikes as well. But then the bus system they have, it's always going so you don't need to drive. You can just park your car and just take the bus all over the place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just remember I must have been to Curry Village. Oh, and then how do we prevent? But let me just finish my thought. I just thought it was really small. Like Rocky Mountain National Park is like huge and there's shuttles and there's just like endless driving. Like I didn't realize Yosemite was so big, but it sounds like it's very big, it seems small. But then when I was trying to just like, oh, I'll just walk to Heritage Center, and I did, I was like I want a bike, like this is forever, you know to and from, but it was, it's really lovely. And then they also out of Yosemite Lodge you can pay to go on a tram ride and it's sort of like an open bed where you can see everything above you and you know they kind of tell you the history and all the information about Yosemite. Okay, yeah, this reminds me of another question.
Speaker 1:In one of our episodes we talked about like wanting like tour guides. Is Yosemite good to have a tour guide to really like help you orient yourself or just like no, just go explore on your own. Boats, honestly, are fine and they do have a lot of programs in the evening and you know you, just when you're going to the park they give you a magazine or, I'm sorry, like a newspaper, magazine-ish thing and it tells you all of the like things that you can do in the valley floor, actually next to the Mist Trail. Before you go into the Mist Trail, on the other side of the little the river there's, you go in the back and they actually have, like this art center and you can do artwork back there and that's a visitor center back there. I honestly just found out about it this year with the heritage center because I'm usually hiking a peak, but I only had a couple minutes and I thought I'd just kind of explore and so that's really neat too, okay, and like rocky mountain national park they had they now like year-round, have timed entry that you have to like reserve ahead of time. Do they have that there or you can just go? Is it just the special trails you're talking about going into? Yeah, just going into the park.
Speaker 1:Going into the park, you, you, um, I know covid was a little different. I feel like you, yeah, you may need to check because, yeah, okay, you check the national park website. It is a national park, right? Yeah, so you have a National Park pass? Yeah, but usually when I'm going, I have a reason, like I have a reservation, I have a backpacking trip, I have something. Oh, okay For me, I just I'm going in, but if you don't have something, which you probably do, I mean it's actually big enough. I haven't been to any of the other national parks which I totally need to do. Yes, I would love to. Very good. Thank you so much for the special Yosemite discussion. Yes, thank you. You are a so glad to share Such a fan. I'm a big fan. I definitely enjoy my time in Yosemite.
Speaker 1:It's like it literally is so breathtaking, magical, like you just see these, and it's just the sound also. It's just like. It's like white noise, I guess, I don't know. It's just like surreal. It's just like you just and because it's all up and you're looking, you're just looking up. It's not like you have have to peer over or there's trees in the way, even though the trees are really big and really tall, but you're always looking up and it's just amazing.
Speaker 1:The water's always going. Oh, okay, like Bridal Veil Creek, they always have water. It never stops Yosemite Falls, I believe it can stop, but usually it's always going, but sometimes it's more of a trickle than a really downpour. And, what's interesting, in January, when I go not this year but the previous years it comes off the top water and as it's falling, because it's so cold, it turns into snow. It's falling because it's so cold, it turns into snow and so that's a huge snow cone at the bottom of the falls, which is amazing and that's, you know, so unique, wow, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then nevada and vernal falls of mist trail. There's usually always water going there. It feels like too, but sometimes, um, you know, bigger than not and you know if it's really a torrential, then you don't want to be hiking the mist trail because it's just too slippery and the rocks are. The rocks are so big. You do kind of have to be in pretty good shape if you're going to try and go up the mist trail because of just the it's. It's very steep. Oh, okay, yeah, right, okay, good times, thank you. Thank you so much. It was wonderful talking about you, okay, and can't wait to do one for you next time. Yeah, okay, bye. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the podcast, can you please take a second and do a quick follow of the show and rate us in your podcast app, and, if you have a minute, we would really appreciate a review. Following and rating is the best way to support us. If you're on Instagram, let's connect. We're at where next podcast. Thanks again.
