Panama - Travel with Kimberly

In this episode we talk with Kimberly, a wildlife biologist who studies Jaguars in the jungles of Panama. We discuss her love for the jungle, the country of Panama and its people, culture, food and cost of living. Activities such as surfing, snorkeling, scuba diving, hiking, and visiting waterfalls are popular among tourists and locals. You can support or learn more about her work at kaminando.org.

Panama is in Central America and is the gateway to South America. Here is the map to Panama.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:15

Hi, welcome to our podcast when Next Travel with Kristen and Carol. I am Kristen and I am Carol, and we're two long-term friends with a passion for travel and adventure. Each episode, we interview people around the globe to help us decide where to go next. In this episode, we are meeting with Kimberly, a biologist from the United States that is studying jaguars in Panama. We will hear about what she loves about Panama, the jungle, and how she started her organization, cominandoorg. Enjoy. Hello, hi Kimberly. Thank you so much for joining us today. Welcome.

Speaker 2: 0:54

Thank you, Carol. Thanks for having me Hi, Kimberly.

Speaker 1: 0:58

So good to see you, you too. So we you and I got a chance to talk also through Ruben in Ecuador and just he was mentioning about Panama and I know you and I talked on my podcast a little differently, but this one it's on travel and living and working anywhere and I really love how you've created also your life right between here in the San Francisco East Bay area and then being able to be both places. Right, you have houses in both places, correct?

Speaker 2: 1:33

Well, we own land in Panama that has yet to be built on.

Speaker 1: 1:37

Okay, got it. Yes, okay, and then you have a place here in near San Francisco Bay Area.

Speaker 2: 1:44

Yes.

Speaker 1: 1:45

Live, and then, and then didn't you say?

Speaker 2: 1:48

you said it's equal where you go back and forth between the two places back and forth every few months and we'll stay for four to six weeks each time, sort of like a ping pong game. Back and forth, that's amazing.

Speaker 1: 2:11

So when was the first time that you went to Panama?

Speaker 2: 2:13

Well, that began in 2015, actually. So my partner and I, we originally went to Panama that year and we bought the land that we own now, and then we created our nonprofit organization, which is called Caminando Habitat Connectivity Initiative. You know, buying the land and doing my dissertation prompted this whole thing with the organization, and so that just set us off in this wild ride that we're on with our relationship with Panama and jugglers and studying them there. Oh my goodness. So, yeah, wow.

Speaker 1: 3:02

What I want to also touch upon that before, because I know you and I have talked about it, but to step back for this audience, who wouldn't listen necessarily to the other is what led you to studying jaguars professionally.

Speaker 2: 3:15

Right. So I've always been a big cat lover, a carnivore lover, boar lover, and so, you know, originally I went into my PhD wanting to study mountain lions in the Bay Area, and so that became a bit of a red tape issue Lots of permitting and lots of things were going on and it took too long. And so, in the meantime, my partner and I we ended up meeting some people who were working in Panama and they were living in Colombia, and my partner and I independently, before we even knew each other always wanted land in another country. So, you know, my interest was first in Colombia, but then it ended up that these guys we met, who had their own sustainable forestry organization, who were working in that country, said we think you should check out Panama. So that was what happened, and we ended up going there for a visit in 2015.

Speaker 2: 4:21

We ended up buying land, but the process of buying land took us on umpteen, many kilometers and miles of trekking around the jungles looking for the parcel that we were interested in buying. And so our name, the organization that stemmed from all of this, is called Caminando, which means walking in Spanish, because that's what we do, is we just walk and walk and walk. We walked forever trying to find a land, the land to buy, and then, once we established the organization to study Jaguars, which became my dissertation, I abandoned the mountain lions in the Bay area. I went to Panama to study jaguars. We use camera traps, and to set camera traps to capture images of wildlife in our study area also means walking. There is nothing else we can do but walk, and so we thought that was quite an appropriate name. And then in Spanish it's spelled with a c, but we put a k at the beginning because my name's Kimberly, so we changed it a little bit nice.

Speaker 1: 5:34

I like it. So what town are where are you close to, where's your land in in Panama? Is it anywhere near Panama City? Or I see a town called David, interesting.

Speaker 2: 5:45

Yeah Well, from Panama City. We work in an area in eastern Panama.

Speaker 1: 5:51

It depends on traffic, it depends on construction, on how long it takes you to get there, but it could be two and a half hours, but it's about two hours, okay, funny, because Panama is like an S, like it's curved right, and I was going to think like how, how big is it Like? Can you drive from point to point? It looks like I see a big yellow highway from almost one point, from probably Costa Rica.

Speaker 2: 6:21

Correct. Yeah, that's the one main highway that traverses Central America and cuts through Panama so lengthwise. I don't know exactly how long Panama is, but widthwise we work in basically the narrowest point of the country, so it's roughly like 50 kilometers wide. Yeah, it's really narrow. So there are points in Panama where you can actually watch the sunrise on one side and the sunset on the other side, so it's probably the only place where you can do that in one location. So that is awesome.

Speaker 1: 6:57

Never really thought about that.

Speaker 2: 6:59

Yeah, it's a. It's a geographically interestingly shaped country.

Speaker 1: 7:04

Yes, very interesting, and it's not too far from Colombia. Right, that was your first choice. I didn't realize it, colombia right it borders. Colombia, that's right. What do you appreciate and enjoy the most? You're almost calling it home now, or second home, for sure, when you think about you're about to go, what gets you just really excited to come back to the jungle.

Speaker 2: 7:28

Yeah, I love the jungle. The jungle is. It's just such a magical, special place. It's also as challenging as it is magical, but I really love it there's. There's just nothing like that feeling of being in there, deep in the jungle, surrounded by all these amazing sounds and plants and wildlife.

Speaker 1: 7:54

I love this because I've always felt like it's either are you an ocean person or a mountain person, like everyone likes? Oh, I love the beach. The sun sets, the ocean. I just, you know, can't get enough and I agree with that, and then, but I never hear anyone talk about the jungle, so it's just it's like another, like what? That's a.

Speaker 2: 8:09

Thing yeah, wow. Well, it's interesting because I I am an ocean person, I grew up on the ocean and I adore the ocean. When I think of Panama, I love the jungle. It's it really something special, and it's not for everyone, but it's definitely my other love.

Speaker 1: 8:29

What do you like most of it? Like? What are the sounds, the smells, what you see? What is it that you look forward to or see?

Speaker 2: 8:49

the rainy season. I love, as it's called, the rain forest and parts of it are called cloud forest, which are the higher points of the mountains and the jungles, and that's what I love. I love to be where it's foggy and misty and almost spooky and to hear the silence but yet the sound. It's sort of a funny contradiction. But I really enjoy the foggy, rainy jungle and I like to hear a lone bird call or you know, just the raindrops on the leaves. The humidity feels good. Yeah, it's really great.

Speaker 1: 9:24

And where did you grow up? Did you grow up in California?

Speaker 2: 9:27

no, I'm from Cape Cod.

Speaker 1: 9:29

Cape Cod. Okay, so okay interesting. I always like wonder if people like it really enjoys something that reminds them of childhood or is opposite of childhood. Like I grew up in Minnesota very cold, long winters, cloudy, and I just cannot get enough sun. I just love sunset.

Speaker 2: 9:47

Yeah, well, I'm sort of the opposite of that. I grew up in the fog and I love it. I still love it.

Speaker 1: 9:55

Yeah, yeah, interesting, okay, beautiful. Yeah, I grew up in Southern California and there was lots and lots of fog, although it'd burn off in the afternoon, but now I'm inland and it's always sunny and I actually I do more like that, but I'm open to anything and yeah, it's, it's. There's definitely a beauty, especially in a jungle. I can imagine with you know, the sounds, the smells, the just everything, and I'm sure it's so. How much of Panama is a jungle? I see it's very green, although Costa Rica and Colombia, it's all very green, based on what I'm seeing here. But what? How much is jungle? How much is city, rural versus city life?

Speaker 2: 10:40

Right. Well, panama is developing really rapidly and so unfortunately with that comes a lot of deforestation. If you, if you look at online, actually, there are forest loss websites where you can see over time the changes in the forest loss and the canopy cover, so you can see that happening over time, than the canopy cover, so you can see that happening over time, and you'll also notice that most, almost all of the jungle that remains, all of the rainforest, is on the Caribbean side, and so on either border, so on the Costa Rican border and on the Colombian border, you'll see two large parks the Darien is an infamous jungle on the Colombian side, and then on the Costa Rican side is La Amistad, which is a cross-boundary international park, and so both of those are quite large.

Speaker 1: 11:40

Darien National Park, it looks like, is on the Columbia side.

Speaker 2: 11:44

That's right. Connecting those two buffers is basically a strip of green along the Caribbean coastline and thanks to the indigenous side of the Panama Canal, and so thanks to them, we have that green space remaining. And also in Darien there's another indigenous group called the Embra. They've protected a portion of their lands. Of course, a large region of Darien is a national park as well. And then there's some other indigenous groups in western Panama, so thanks to them a lot of land has remained protected. And then there's a big national park that's just adjacent to Panama City and that's called Chagras National Park.

Speaker 2: 12:46

And Chagras National Park is connected to the Gunayalas land, so that makes a nice corridor of protected vegetation, and that whole line of vegetation is part of the Mesoamerican biological corridor, is part of the Mesoamerican biological corridor, and it's like this. It's a really big effort to try and protect lands. It's an international effort. You know, part of the research that we do and other people have done, is to verify and sort of validate whether or not that concept is working. Like is that biological corridor effective, and are there species in there that should be using it or are they not using it? And so that's part of what our research addresses as well. The rest is pretty well deforested.

Speaker 1: 13:41

I just listened to this podcast or a YouTube video about Bali and someone complaining that it's gotten so bad and, you know, it's really becoming more like a lot of remote workers and foreigners buying land there. I hear about that in Costa Rica, so it's just starting now in Panama City, or I'm interested in Panama in general, or is it? You know, is it still kind of an unknown gem, is it? Yeah, too many questions here, but like, is it good, because I know tourism is actually good for some countries because it helps feed the population, but is it just when people move in there and then, you know, raise the rent? And have you been able to see, you know, other than the deforestation, how digital nomads or remote workers are helping or hurting the land?

Speaker 2: 14:28

Yeah, it is an interesting conundrum actually for um, for some countries, panama is pretty strange and unique in that it's, in my mind, it's like the America of Central America, where it's quite modern, it's not a poor country in general, it's not considered a low income country. If you look at ratings of, you know all the countries are rated right, third kind of a third world level and low income, medium income, high income countries and it's not a low income country.

Speaker 1: 15:06

Oh, it looks like Santa. It looks like San Diego. I'm looking at pictures and there's a ton of high rises right on the beach. They're big. And there's. It's literally like San Francisco style. There's that many.

Speaker 2: 15:18

It's a very, very interesting place. Yeah, so Panama City is incredibly modern. You really can see the difference between the poor and the well-to-do. It's kind of a dramatic difference, and there's a lot of money available in Panama. There's a lot of wealth in Panama, but there's also a lot of poverty, and so they use the US dollar.

Speaker 1: 15:42

By the way, that's a question of ours. Yeah, all right. Yeah, cool, I mean 100 percent.

Speaker 2: 15:50

Yeah, wow, ok, you'll get coins that are called Balboas.

Speaker 1: 15:54

You'll get change.

Speaker 2: 15:55

That are you, that are dollar coins and Balboas, which is the Panamanian currency, but everybody basically uses the dollar. Panama hasn't had, in my mind, a lot of tourism and it seems like it's been skipped over when you think of Latin America, Central and South America. People go to other places and they just land in Panama because it's like the flight stops there, or you want to see the Panama Canal.

Speaker 2: 16:24

Or they take a cruise through the Panama Canal. Right yeah, until recently, I would say. Since we've been going to Panama, and since the pandemic, more people seem to be going there for vacation than they used to, and so somehow the word is getting out. There are a lot of expats living in Panama. Many of the expats live in western Panama, in the higher elevations or in Bocas del Toro, so Boquete is a big hub for expats and Bocas del Toro as well. It's like a surf town.

Speaker 1: 17:10

I had a friend go there and they had like the little boats that take you between.

Speaker 2: 17:16

Yeah, yeah, beautiful it is. It is nice up there. If you go into the mountains in Boquete, you'll see why so many expats live there. It's because the temperature is pretty nice. It's cooler. You're just higher up there and you don't get so hot.

Speaker 1: 17:35

And then I see Volcan up there and you don't get so hot. And then it's, I see Volcan, and then, but it's, it looks like it's from Boca de Toro, and then directly up like must be, like mountain, or so you said yes.

Speaker 2: 17:45

Volcan is one of the highest points in the country. Is that a volcano? Yes, it's an inactive volcano. I'm not sure when the last time it erupted, but people hike it all the time.

Speaker 1: 18:01

Oh, got it Okay. It looks like it borders Costa Rica close to it on that side and it looks like it's kind of part of the La Amistad Park as well that area it connects.

Speaker 2: 18:15

Yeah, it's a whole complex of parks in there.

Speaker 1: 18:18

So Boca boca del toro, is that an? Island am I looking at the right thing?

Speaker 2: 18:22

there are uh several islands off the coast okay, bocas del toro.

Speaker 1: 18:29

Okay, so that's on the caribbean side on the caribbean side.

Speaker 2: 18:33

Yeah, there are a handful of islands out there that people can go visit.

Speaker 1: 18:38

I feel like Costa Rica, the Pacific side, seems more popular In Panama. Is there just different areas on both sides that are popular? What's your favorite, pacific or Caribbean?

Speaker 2: 18:51

Well, it is interesting. The Caribbean islands are very popular, so you've got Bogos del Toro, but you also have the San Blas Islands, and those are really the highlights of going to Panama to see those two areas. Oh, okay, and those are all on the Caribbean side, but on the Pacific side there are also islands, and some really beautiful islands, but people don't tend to go there as often as the others. Islands, but people don't tend to go there as often as the others. Okay, one large island off the coast of Western Panama on the Pacific side is called Coiba. I see that, yeah, and that's kind of like the Galapagos of Panama. Oh, nice, it's a very popular scuba diving destination. I have yet to go there and that's on my list still Okay, oh, nice, okay.

Speaker 1: 19:39

And so when you go, since you have land and you have this study, have you got a chance to travel a fair amount or just just a few places at this point?

Speaker 2: 19:47

We have, we've been. We've been around Panama for sure. Like I said, still not quite, but it's pretty far offshore. You have to get the right um trip organized to do that. We just haven't done it yet. But but we've seen a lot and I'd say most of the highlights of the country okay, what about, like, the safety?

Speaker 1: 20:07

I feel like that's kind of a a stereotype that panama is a little unstable or not like not the safest place for americans go, but I'd love to see it.

Speaker 2: 20:20

Bless that myth. Yeah, I don't think that has been true in the very recent past. It's been a pretty safe place, but I would say, over the last few odd years crime has really increased, and particularly since the pandemic, as many other places. So, yeah, right now I would say it is not as safe as it was when we started. Okay.

Speaker 1: 20:47

What would you recommend for being safe If someone wanted to come to Panama?

Speaker 2: 20:52

Um well, just you know it's always wise to travel with others, right? So you don't want to be a single person out in the remote jungles by yourself, and I don't know. I would probably recommend tours, just to get your feet if you've never been so just go with people who know where to go to avoid those things as best you can.

Speaker 1: 21:16

Yes, that makes sense it's so funny. In 2002 I went to costa rica and I went to the gulf a dulce, which is the southern most tip, and I could see panama, the panama canal, and just, and, and, uh, and when I was doing my research they said that costa rica was very safe for women travelers. So I literally was in the jungle, backpacking by myself for a month all over Costa Rica.

Speaker 1: 21:38

And it's interesting to hear. Don't go alone. But maybe I don't know if it's led into Costa Rica, you know if it's still like it was when I traveled there 20 years ago. But but yeah, definitely point noted, I won't go by myself to Panama.

Speaker 2: 21:55

Well, no, it's just, I don't ever recommend going in the jungle alone. There's, it's just not a. It's not good because so many things could happen. And in our project, um, you know our employees, we have local people and local guides, our field assistants. Uh, we never let them go go alone, even though they may do that when they're not working for us, but when they're with us or working for us, they must team up. We never let people go by themselves, just because you know you can slip, you can trip, you can fall, you can step on a snake and there are species of venomous snakes that could kill you in no time, and so, just for those reasons, it's not wise to be alone yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 22:48

Oh, my goodness, I, uh, I can imagine out there. Do you have in terms of also the lots of? Um, I know in costa Costa Rica there were leafcutter ants and I'd see lots of macaws and lots of monkeys swinging. Is there that, I'm assuming, in the jungles as well, that you see in Panama?

Speaker 2: 23:09

Sure, it depends on where you go, and we've noticed something that's a little ironic, I have to say In the depth of the jungle you don't often see a lot of wildlife. Oh okay, you, just you don't, because they hear you coming and they don't want to see you and so they're gone, they disappear so you're lucky if you see anything other than or birds, but no large mammals rarely ever.

Speaker 2: 23:38

Yet in Panama City there's a hill. It's called Ancon Hill and it's like a chunk of jungle. They left it. It's right in Panama City and it's beautiful. And if you don't see animals in the jungle out in the wilds of where we work or some other parks, you can go to Ancon Hill in Panama City and see quite a few things quite easily.

Speaker 1: 24:09

Okay, you call it Ancon.

Speaker 2: 24:11

Ancon A-N-C-O-N.

Speaker 1: 24:13

Okay, an. I missed the A N-C-O-N. Okay, anne, I missed the A. Okay, anne, it's quite funny.

Speaker 2: 24:16

You know you'll see toucans. You'll see those birds that you're. You know the large flashy birds you can see there and some of the parrots. But you'll see other things like agoutis. Some people have seen the ocelot there. So for whatever reason, they're in this little island. That's so neat.

Speaker 1: 24:38

Is it like a zoo?

Speaker 2: 24:39

almost, or are they just totally?

Speaker 1: 24:40

in the wild.

Speaker 2: 24:41

No, they're just there. It's connected. They can get through a corridor to other parts and other forests, but a lot of them just made their home there. It's also a really famous place for bird watching during migration.

Speaker 1: 25:00

So, you can see a lot from there, and it's also a really famous place for birdwatching during migration. So you can see a lot from there, when is bird season?

Speaker 2: 25:04

Oh, that's a good question. Migration, well, I mean spring and fall, to and fro.

Speaker 1: 25:12

I have it up on the map and it's next to the Supreme Court.

Speaker 2: 25:16

I have it up on the map and it's next to the Supreme Court Exactly. I know it's so funny that there's so much wildlife right there.

Speaker 1: 25:22

Well, and when I look it up on a map and there's like I was, I initially looked at green areas and none of them said Ancon Hill. I just look where the it's a peg, then it's like Ancon Hill next to Supreme Court, and then there's like Sosa Hill, which looks big and green, and then some other green patches, but not Ancon Hill.

Speaker 2: 25:46

Yeah, it's funny. And it's not far from the Panama Canal and it's not too far from Casca Viejo, which is the old part of Panama, the old town.

Speaker 1: 25:59

Where is that and what's it called?

Speaker 2: 26:02

Casco Viejo, c-a-s-c-o, and it is on the Pacific side and the mouth of the canal Just looking at it right now, it is really close to the Panama Canal.

Speaker 1: 26:14

It's like right there which is great, and I don't see. I don't see Casco, Is it? I see other places Balboa, Lancona, Howard, and then there's like a, there's like a narrow strip that and it must be built. It looks like a bridge that goes to Panama Bay, Bahia, Flamenco.

Speaker 2: 26:36

Yeah, there's. Casco. Viejo is like I said, it's at the Pacific end, the Pacific side of the canal, entrance For the Bridges of America. It's right there, it's right near there, on the east side of the canal Got it Okay, there's a road that makes a circle around, and you might see that road looping around the city.

Speaker 1: 27:03

Oh, yes, it's up further a little bit. Okay, casa Casco, I see that France Square, and then there's, it looks like it's kind of neat, it's like you know the end of the land and then a bridge that circles it. Yeah, I've seen that too All the way around.

Speaker 2: 27:22

Why did?

Speaker 1: 27:23

they do that. I don't know if you know it's a bypass just to you know, keep traffic out of that area Bypass. That's a good way.

Speaker 2: 27:41

It's a nice road. It's really nice to drive down. There's a lot of bicyclists that use it for races and whatnot.

Speaker 1: 27:46

So, oh wow, I wonder how many miles, I don't know, does it? Is it like 10 minutes to get around it or something like that, or driving ones? Yeah, not too far yeah, yeah it looks significant but huge but very creative. Right in terms of getting traffic out of town is just make it go around and go around. Less stress because you've got water on your side yes very nice, all right.

Speaker 1: 28:13

Um, well, let's should we talk about food a little bit. I'm very interested to hear what kind of food you have out there. What do you like?

Speaker 2: 28:22

Well, I would say, as with a lot of Central and South America, it's like beans and rice. Beans and rice are pretty significant. With that, you basically can have the chicken option, the pork or the beef option, and so that's really. You know, most people. If you stop and you, you pull over to a little restaurant, that's, that's what you'll find. Tacos, too, or no? No, tacos no. Okay, it's really beans and rice and then a meat. But I have to say pork is really really popular in Panama. Okay, pork is very, very well liked there. Okay, it's in almost everything you order. There's some form of pork Interesting. I don't eat pork. That becomes a little bit of a problem.

Speaker 1: 29:18

I'm always flicking it out, or saying no, pork no pork Is there a lot of, I guess, in the area that's. Maybe it's just easier to raise them than cattle or chickens no, they desire the pork, okay.

Speaker 2: 29:32

So there's definitely cattle ranching is a big thing and definitely lots of lots of meat, eating lots of beef, lots of okay, lots of chicken, um, but then on the coast, of course, you have lots of fish, so seafood's a big thing as well. In the rural areas, you get really basic meals, like I was just describing, and then, um, a very common thing is called patacis, and there's, uh, yucca. Do you know what yucca is? No, I don't. It's, um, it's a root and it's like a potato in a way, but it's a long root. It's a big, brown, long, heavy root, and you peel this, the outer, the outer skin off, and it's white inside. That's another thing that's very common. So there's the yucca.

Speaker 1: 30:32

What do they do with it? What are some anything fun that they do with it? You know, like, think of like a potato. You've got French fries, you've got mashed potatoes, you've got baked potatoes. Is it yucca, Do they just?

Speaker 2: 30:41

roast it. Yucca can be just boiled or fried. Basically that's what we find, and it's quite delicious. I love it. Fried yucca is wonderful, but then the patacones are made out of plantain, so a green plantain is smashed and they make these little flat, flat round patacones.

Speaker 2: 31:08

So they smash the green plantain and then they fry it, and so you also have ripe plantains, which you may or may not have had somewhere already. They're quite sweet and they're also fried. There's a lot of fried action. And then there's another quite famous dish in Panama is called Sancocho, which is a special chicken soup that they make, but the ingredients are things that you don't have here, and some of those things just make it what it is. They make it that special soup in Panama, and that's delicious. Sancocho soup is quite good. What about?

Speaker 1: 31:54

vegetables, I mean fruits. I would imagine there's some amazing fruits Like mangoes.

Speaker 2: 32:00

Fruits exist. Yes, they exist. There's a lot of citrus, like you'll see citrus trees, lemons, lemons, limes, mangoes also, and oranges we see those most often and then bananas, typical tropical fruit. One of my favorites is passion fruit. Oh yeah, yes, so there's that as well.

Speaker 1: 32:28

And I know guava. I remember a lot of well. I thought it was in Costa Rica. I could be wrong.

Speaker 2: 32:35

Yeah, we don't seem to eat a lot of guava when we're there. It's mostly like the bananas things that people grow. You know you can go to the store and you can get whatever you want at the store. They have quite an elaborate supermarket system so you can get anything and you can get things that you can buy here as well. So things that aren't necessarily from Panama you can go get at the store.

Speaker 1: 33:01

Because you've got the canal. Anyone that's passing through.

Speaker 2: 33:09

What do we want?

Speaker 1: 33:10

off this ship. Right, you want there, and there are specific drinks that they drink. I remember when I was in costa rica it was like chicken, beans, rice and then like fruit smoothies did a lot of smoothies there, other things, yeah that's the same.

Speaker 2: 33:22

You can get those as well. Yeah, and, and I was just in santa monica, right.

Speaker 1: 33:26

But we went to a couple of little mexican restaurants and I like got like an orange or it was actually a mango juice drink and they put, like this hot pepper chili on the rim, almost like a margarita, but like spicy.

Speaker 2: 33:40

It was so good and I'm starting to see in a few different places.

Speaker 1: 33:43

I don't know if that where that originates from Mexico or Central America.

Speaker 2: 33:47

I think that's more Mexico.

Speaker 1: 33:49

Yeah, yeah. And then what do people do? Activity wise, what's? You know what are the favorite sports that people do in Panama? Or if people are active, I know it sounds like surfing and Boca de Toro. I know my friend did it as well and it sounded pretty darn amazing. I saw the pictures. It was unbelievable. And you said snorkeling or scuba diving also for that island as well. Are there other things that people do, or locals do as well? Sure, yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:21

Yeah, I noticed that it's becoming more popular over time as well to get out and do activities like that. You know, I've noticed an influx of Panamanians doing things. They're just they're getting out there a little bit more than I remember them doing. In terms of always doing that stuff, but the locals not necessarily, and now I'm seeing more of the Panamanians involved, so that's good. I wonder if that's what the pandemic.

Speaker 1: 34:48

Too right, Because it definitely increased here in the Bay Area as well.

Speaker 2: 34:52

Yeah, probably something to do with it. I see a lot of bike riding, a lot of people you know getting out hiking. There's mountain biking oh nice, there's a big attraction to waterfalls in Panama. We've got tons of waterfalls there, so that's sort of a thing. Go visit the waterfalls.

Speaker 1: 35:13

Love it. What are some of the famous ones that you would say or that you like, that you would recommend?

Speaker 2: 35:20

Oh, I honestly I couldn't give you any names. I've seen a few, but I haven't really deliberately explored them. I have a friend who knows all of them by heart and, like whenever there's a an opportunity, every weekend visits a new one. So, yeah, well, I see. Uh, las tres cascadas, the lost waterfalls cascada kiki. Oh, yeah, yeah they're all like put out there okay, so quite a few.

Speaker 1: 35:53

Yeah, that's what we don't have in colorado. Like, we love hiking all the time, but there's like, is you go to a peak you know a small peak or 14, or there's a few waterfalls, that, oh yeah, that sounds awesome. And then what about like so bikes, to say someone's going to go there for a while, maybe slow travel or stay for a month. Is it easy to rent bikes or would you just have to buy one while you're there or bring one with you?

Speaker 2: 36:15

that sounds really fun I have no doubt that you can rent bikes I've not looked into it, but I guarantee there are now a handful of tourist agencies where you can do that Nice.

Speaker 1: 36:31

Probably same surfing surfboards, yeah. And then what about work-wise? It seemed like Panama City looks kind of like a San Francisco or Oakland or kind of like a main city. So and all the basics and things. I don't know if there's any specific work that is unique. I know, like Cuban cigars in Cuba, what people do or work.

Speaker 2: 36:59

Well, like I said, panama City has everything. So all of like you know the companies we see here. They'll have offices there. So you know there's a lot of a lot of positions that I'm unfamiliar with because I'm a biologist, so there's things like corporate world. I don't understand.

Speaker 1: 37:19

They're all there? It sounds like they're not there. They've got Wi-Fi.

Speaker 2: 37:23

It's all there. It sounds like they got there. They've got Wi-Fi, they're all, there All the big corporations all the banking and the money and law and whatnot. You name it, it's there.

Speaker 1: 37:32

Yeah, and then what's cost of living? Look like Anima, because I remember my friend when he went to.

Speaker 2: 37:44

Boca de Toro. It was like. It seemed like it was $40 a night or it was. It was pretty cheap to stay there Relative to other Central American countries. It's not cheap, okay, but coming from here it is. It's just. I was surprised at how much it costs. You know you can go out in Panama city and you'll spend as much money as you do going in San Francisco.

Speaker 1: 38:05

Okay, it's up to you.

Speaker 2: 38:12

I mean, you can really. You have to pick the level of spending you prefer, right? You can spend like you do here in San Francisco, or you can make it more low key and stay in less high end places. You can camp, you can go to hostels, you know. It just depends. That's why I say it's like the America of Central America, so you just have to pick what you prefer and you're able to do that. But yet you can buy land and housing less than you can here. That's still a good calling card for Panama, which is why a lot of people are moving there, a lot of people are retiring there, because their money will go a lot further. They can buy a lot of land and a home and live just fine, just perfectly fine and happy, just fine, just perfectly fine and happy. And the other thing is the healthcare is is very good in Panama. So that's another well, as I said, another good calling card for Panama. It's got very, very good healthcare system?

Speaker 1: 39:21

Awesome, is it universal, kind of like I know in Sweden, like my relatives there, they, you know, it's just all together and then here, of course, in the US we have to buy into it, is it? How is it in Panama?

Speaker 2: 39:34

You also have to. It's not universal. So yeah, if you're, and again you just have to select which one suits you best. You know they have private hospitals that are pretty amazing, but then they have the public hospital, which is really not amazing.

Speaker 1: 39:53

So don't go to a public hospital.

Speaker 2: 39:55

I've been to both. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:01

So the other side, yeah, how much does it cost? To say, if someone wanted to stay there for six months, a couple months a year, what can they expect in terms of a cost? I don't know if you know, because I know you've got your place, but the cost of rents Well again, it's completely up to the person.

Speaker 2: 40:22

You know know you can rent a house, you could rent an apartment, you could rent a room. So it's kind of hard to say it's okay kind of runs the gamut, you know, yeah, but again it would be less, I would say overall than here.

Speaker 1: 40:39

Okay, that makes sense absolutely. And are there any um popular holiday traditions or any certain times a year that are like really fun to go be there for?

Speaker 2: 40:50

Panama has more holidays than anywhere I've ever been Okay, so if you'd like to party. It's constantly a holiday down there. It's really funny. I feel like every time we show up there's another holiday. Oh okay, that's interesting, it's quite funny. So they take them seriously. They like to enjoy life. You know, christmas, new Year's, all of that it's just like one big shutdown, one big party for a while, for a few weeks. Great, yeah, it is, it's really great. That's what I like about Latin America is their zest for life, you know.

Speaker 1: 41:30

Do they? They speak Spanish there. Oh, yes, yeah, and if you don't speak Spanish, is it easy to get around, or is it a? You know? Make sure you've got your translation dictionary or something.

Speaker 2: 41:44

It's kind of a mix. In the city you'll find a lot of people who speak English because they're more educated and they've learned in school. The more rural areas, much less opportunity. Again, if you're going through like a tourist agency travel tour of some kind, obviously someone will speak English. But yeah, it's sort of a mix, Okay.

Speaker 1: 42:09

So should we move to the rapid fire questions, or is there anything else you wanted to cover first, kristen? No, this is great.

Speaker 2: 42:15

Oh, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 42:16

Yeah, this is a very fun place to visit, for sure. Nice day. Okay. So what is one of your favorite foods there?

Speaker 2: 42:23

I know it sounds very simple, but is there a good dish that you that you do like to get when you get there? I, I don't know. I really like how their chicken is cooked. They make really good chicken.

Speaker 1: 42:43

Okay.

Speaker 2: 42:43

Is it boiled or is it they barbecue it or no? Grilled chicken? I don't know how they do it. It's just this. It's like flattened and perfectly done and so delicious oh, very nice, very nice.

Speaker 1: 42:55

Okay, um any kind of specific music um that you hear there they do have a very particular type of music.

Speaker 2: 43:03

It's called Tipico. I love it, tipico. Tipico it has. I think it's something that visitors either love it or hate it, okay so like reggae or what's it like no, it's super hard to describe reggae, or what's it like? No, it's super hard to describe um. It has this rather haunting vocalization to it, which is what I love does it go go well with the, the fog and the in the?

Speaker 2: 43:35

jungle. You know the use of accordion and I love the accordion. I think it's just gorgeous, and so the combination of the sound that this accordion is kind of haunting vocalization is it's great in my opinion. I just love it. You'll hear that a lot around the country. Uh, and that's the, the, the typical Panamanian music. Okay, you know you turn on the radio, you'll have stations of that type, the typical, but then of course you'll have modern music of salsa, you'll have reggaeton. I'd say those are the three most commonly heard, but I love the typical.

Speaker 1: 44:17

Okay, good, and what is the popular religion there?

Speaker 2: 44:23

Well, you know, throughout Latin America Christianity is most prevalent, like Catholicism and derivatives of. You know various types of Christianity. Catholicism is pretty popular, okay, good.

Speaker 1: 44:42

And this is not in the rapid fire questions, but like how easy is it to get around? Like, if you like, do they have trains or really reliable buses, or do most people rent a car?

Speaker 2: 44:54

Yeah, you can very easily rent a car. That's a really good way to go. Otherwise, you can take buses all over the place. Yeah, okay fly.

Speaker 1: 45:04

Oh, you can fly. I was wondering because it looks like, um, yeah, visa is right at the entrance of the darien national park and that you it looks like you cannot drive from panama to columbia no, you cannot.

Speaker 2: 45:20

the road ends there and that's it. Do you know why?

Speaker 1: 45:27

I know drugs, but I don't know if that's what it is?

Speaker 2: 45:28

I don't know. My suspicion is just the jungle itself. But I don't know if it had to do with funding. I don't know exactly why it ended right there, but it definitely ended, and so from that point on, you have to go by foot or by boat, and both, I should say boat and foot okay, got it well.

Speaker 1: 45:54

One of our last questions is that what are some of the best places to surf? We you know usually where's the closest, but there's probably a lot of surfing. Is there specific towns that are?

Speaker 2: 46:02

for surfing. Um well, you can definitely go up to bocas to do that, but another popular place is the izuero peninsula and pacific. There's a place called pedasi and you can go down that coastline. It's become quite developed. And there's a place called Playa Venal and people go surfing there as well. Oh, I see it, playa.

Speaker 1: 46:34

Venal, Is that all on the same peninsula or those two different things?

Speaker 2: 46:38

That's the Izguero Peninsula on the Pacific side. Oh, okay, so that's a popular area for surfing oh, I see so kristen.

Speaker 1: 46:47

It's like in the s. It'd be like on the first curve. The top s not too far from coiba island, but just east of that right yeah, okay, got it, okay, yeah, so yeah it's more pacific facing. So I could see if that'd be some better waves At Coyba and I just zoomed in a little bit, but it looks like there's all these little dots island too.

Speaker 2: 47:16

There are. Yeah, it's a really beautiful area. I think it's part of the park complex. I'm not sure that people live out there other than in Coyba.

Speaker 1: 47:28

Yeah, very nice. This is really great to see. Oh, lovely, yeah, well, thank you so much for that. This is great. Um, just to explore Panama. We have not done that before yes, I love it. Knew nothing about it so yeah, wonderful place, especially from someone who literally has lived there for eight years, on and off. Well, yeah, I've spent some time there.

Speaker 2: 47:50

Yeah, yeah, but I also, you know, I welcome everybody to look up our website.

Speaker 1: 47:58

Oh, yes, I wanted to see and talk about that and what you're doing and how people could either support you and look into it Anything that they'd like to learn more about. How could they do that?

Speaker 2: 48:11

Go to Kaminandoorg, which is K-A-M-I-N-A-N-D-Oorg Okay, N-D-O dot org. Okay, and you can peruse the website and you can find the donate button right on the front page Nice To donate towards the conservation of jaguars in Panama. You know we work with the local people. We're working with the indigenous Gunayala people. We've been working with them. We have an agreement for five years to work in their land and to work with their schools and the kids there. So yeah, we've been busy doing that and people can also visit our site. We have had tours to the study area.

Speaker 1: 49:05

Oh, okay.

Speaker 2: 49:06

People who are interested in going out in the jungle, even though it's incredibly difficult to do. We have had people come in the past several times to help us, you know, get a taste of what it's like to be a Jaguar biologist working in the jungle.

Speaker 1: 49:24

So and are those structured, or are you just kind of just one by one figure it out and kind of let them shadow you, or do you have?

Speaker 2: 49:31

like We've organized tours. Actually, we've organized tours for people to go see Panama and we've also incorporated our study area and our project with that tour. Oh, that's fascinating. Oh, my goodness. We've done both, and we've done it together and separately. So you know, the contact email is on the website, okay, so if anybody's interested in speaking with us further, and do you have any social channels that you? We have Instagram and Facebook.

Speaker 1: 50:04

Okay, okay, I assume those links are on the website as well coming on, though, is for both facebook instagram. That's a good one. Well, thank you so much, kimberly. I so appreciate your time and information okay, thank you take care, okay, bye.

Speaker 1: 50:21

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the podcast, can you please take a second and do a quick follow of the show and rate us in your podcast app? And, if you have a minute, we would really appreciate a review. Following and rating is the best way to support us. If you're on Instagram, let's connect. We're at where next podcast. Thanks again.