Ukraine - Travel with Robert

Visiting with Robert, who divides his time between the UK and Ukraine.  He shares his insights about Ukraine's history, culture, food and the people. He talks about how his situation has been affected by the war and shares his knowledge of on Ukraine's geography, history, transportation, cost of living, and language. Throughout the podcast, Robert's love for Ukraine is evident, and he paints a vivid picture of what makes Ukraine unique and special.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:15

Hi, welcome to our podcast when Next Travel with Kristen and Carol. I am Kristen and I am Carol, and we're two long-term friends with a passion for travel and adventure. Each episode, we interview people around the globe to help us decide where to go next. Today we are meeting with Robert, a global citizen who splits his time between the UK and Ukraine. We dive into Ukrainian history, the strength of the people, how his situation has been affected by the war and what he loves about the nation. Enjoy Welcome, robert. Thank you so much for joining us, kristen. Robert is a dear friend of my sister-in-law, julie Thank you, julie and he has traveled around the world for his few jobs. He'll share his background on that and we are going to talk about Ukraine today, and so we know there's a lot going on in the Ukraine. Robert actually is married to a Ukrainian woman.

Speaker 2: 1:15

Thank you for having me. So I'm Robert Carcines, I live in the UK, I'm married to Oksana, who's Ukrainian, and we have our life split between the UK and Ukraine. You can tell by my accent I'm probably not British. In fact I'm an American with a kind of a we'd say in Holland we call it an ashtray background. There's a little bit of everything in there. My father was Dutch, my mother's an American. I was born in Colombia and Barranquilla and I traveled from there to the US and I guess you know this is what put the travel bug and the international kind of citizen thing into mine and my brother's blood. So I grew up in Holland after relatively short stint in the States, and so I got to know your sister-in-law Obviously she was there for some time. I went back to the States, where I was a police officer for some time, and back here, and I've been living in Europe again for the better part of 40 years and my jobs have always caused me to travel and maybe I sought those out for exactly that reason.

Speaker 1: 2:19

And so where in the Ukraine do you spend your time?

Speaker 2: 2:23

To kind of put this in context. So Ukraine is an enormous country, arguably the largest country in Europe. So when they talk about the fighting in the east, if you're living in the middle of Ukraine, you have actually no idea that there's a war in the east. To give you an idea, that's 800 kilometers away, so 500 miles, which in European terms is quite a distance. So my wife is from the Kiev area, so we're about 130 kilometers northeast of Kiev and a little town called Chernihiv. And Chernihiv is an ancient town. It's in itself 1000 years old. That's where the architecture still is. Yes, that's old, although you have to keep in mind that there have been people living in Ukraine for 30,000 years. They've had traces of settlements 30,000 years ago. So we're northeast and everybody will know about Chernobyl and if you don't, that was the meltdown in 1986. And so Chernihiv is about southeast from Chernobyl, about 100 kilometers.

Speaker 1: 3:24

Okay, all right, and so the town that you were in, chernihiv, or.

Speaker 2: 3:28

Chernihiv.

Speaker 1: 3:29

Chernihiv.

Speaker 2: 3:30

Chernihiv. Oh, I see it.

Speaker 1: 3:32

Chernihiv, so it's north of Kiev, okay.

Speaker 2: 3:35

Right North northeast of Kiev by about 130, 140 kilometers.

Speaker 1: 3:41

Oh, okay, gotcha, 90 miles. Okay, isn't there? Part of the activity right now is in Kiev, or is it?

Speaker 2: 3:50

way farther Right. So brief history of recent history. When the war started, the Russians invaded on a number of fronts, so they came in from the East, because actually, what most of the world tends to forget is that we've actually been at war since 2014.

Speaker 1: 4:07

Oh, I didn't know that.

Speaker 2: 4:09

So there was a Russian insurgency, russian-backed insurgency, since 2014 in the Donbass, the east of the country. It was in 2014 where the Russians annexed Crimea. Between 2014 and the actual and the invasion from last year, which, in Ukraine, we see it as the extended invasion, you know we've already had 15,000 more dead and a million people were already on the move in Ukraine. And that's what I say when you live in Kiev. You wouldn't. Prior to this, if you travel to Kiev, you would have no idea there was a war. Prior to this, if you traveled to Kiev, you would have no idea there was a war in the east. So when the invasion first happened, they came in from the north and they actually came to Chernihiv. That was one of the main roads into Kiev and there was a battle of Chernihiv, which is a siege, and they never got through. Basically, when they came in, there was some military, but mostly it was a ragtag bunch of volunteers that kept them at bay. So our town, chernihiv, the center of it, was in many ways kind of untouched.

Speaker 1: 5:15

But 70% of the town outside of the center was leveled, so you were right in the heart of it.

Speaker 2: 5:20

That's right. So I wasn't there at the time, but my sister-in-law was there with her four-year-old hiding in a basement. She refused to leave and I finally persuaded her she needed to go and she had a ticket to leave on the 25th and the war started on the 24th of February. As of April April 22, there's been no Russian soldiers present. There's been no fighting on the ground there at all.

Speaker 1: 5:48

From last April, so April 22. Last April.

Speaker 2: 5:51

April 22. April 22.

Speaker 1: 5:53

That's right, it's been a year. It's really been a year already.

Speaker 2: 5:57

Right, so the war started on 24th of April. This escalation started on the 24th of February.

Speaker 1: 6:03

Got it.

Speaker 2: 6:03

Okay, as a side note, I was with my brother in North Carolina because he just had a heart attack. Oh yeah, so that was a good year. It was a great year. He survived it. We got everybody out and actually, life happened.

Speaker 1: 6:20

Half full, half empty, right Just looking at a cup. That's right, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 6:24

So, anyway, so that's Chernihiv. So yes, it was a center of it. Fortunately, chernihiv is known for its fantastic churches, the Opera House, red Square. It has a massive historic and interesting religious background. You know, it's a beautiful, beautiful town and recently they just put a lot of money into refurbing all the central parks, worked hard on making it an attractive place. But Chernihiv, like so much of Ukraine, was absolutely leveled in World War II.

Speaker 1: 7:02

The devastation was 20 times what it is today.

Speaker 2: 7:07

Seeing this gorgeous castle-like building in the center.

Speaker 1: 7:09

It's white with green and I believe you're looking at st catherine's, probably, and uh, yeah, so st catherine's is.

Speaker 2: 7:12

As you drive into, drive in from keeve into, into town, you'll see st catherine's, I think that picture just as it comes to mind. It's up on a hill and you're looking, you're looking up at it. What it reads underneath it is is chenna heave. Right, that's what it says underneath there. Yeah, now, st catherine's has been there, if I'm not mistaken, uh, in some form, for the better part of a thousand years, I think. I think it was originally built in 12 or 1300.

Speaker 1: 7:38

So the the predominant religion in uh, ukraine, ukrainian orthodox okay right, yes, we had neighbors growing up with that, I remember oh, right, yeah, and they have the best. Have you been to minneapolis? Have you been to minneapolis? The? Best ukrainian deli ever kromarchik's outstanding right.

Speaker 2: 7:58

Outstanding outstanding it's like.

Speaker 1: 8:00

I mean, I'm half polish and so it's very similar to the Polish food the pierogies and the sauerkraut, the sausage.

Speaker 2: 8:09

So you know about borscht, then as well, I take it. Yes, the beet soup, yes, that is the staple.

Speaker 1: 8:16

Okay, so it's beet soup, is it red beets?

Speaker 2: 8:21

Yes, yeah. So it's a really hearty soup. It's made with beets, cabbage, potatoes, meat, usually a pork, and it's pretty much a staple of the Ukrainian cuisine and it's often served with a sour cream and bread, so it's brown bread In addition to that. So you get the brown bread and you get small pieces of garlic to go with it, and typically next to it is a real traditional Ukrainian snack called salo. They also have this in Poland and effectively what it is, it's cured pork, fat on bread and with garlic and pickles.

Speaker 1: 8:57

Oh, that's an interesting combo. For a California health freak that sounds probably dangerous, Right.

Speaker 2: 9:03

Ukrainians will tell you right. It's served frozen and raw, very often almost frozen Sure.

Speaker 1: 9:07

I've had it, but it doesn't sound familiar, wow.

Speaker 2: 9:09

Yeah, and they, they slice it in very thin bacon like slices, okay. And then you, you, you cut it up and it's quite heavily salted and you eat it and they, they swear by that. You know, if you cook it it's bad for your heart.

Speaker 1: 9:29

If you don't, it's just fine.

Speaker 2: 9:32

Okay, the sushi of the yeah, of the pork, the sushi of bacon, yeah and the other one which you probably recognize is is uhika, which is a pierogi, which is a dumplings filled with mashed potatoes, cheese and meat, and it's another comfort food, right.

Speaker 1: 9:50

So how do they call it there?

Speaker 2: 9:52

Varenika, v-a-r-e-n-y-k-y, and you know, ukraine is traditionally a big farming country, right? So I was wondering about that.

Speaker 2: 10:03

Yeah, yeah, so you'll find that a lot of the traditional foods come from that kind of a background. Right is traditionally a big farming country, right? I was wondering about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you'll find that a lot of the traditional foods come from that kind of a background, right, it's really hearty food. So if you start heading out east from where Chernihiv is, you come across what used to be called the bread basket of the Soviet Union, which is very much the bread basket of the world at this point, which is one of the reasonsbasket of the world at this point, which is one of the reasons, as the war started, loaves of bread got very expensive, and pasta and all kinds of things. So, you know, you'll find, you know, like so many countries which have, you know, a big agricultural background, you find that there's a very hearty menu or diet.

Speaker 1: 10:38

Okay, and I'm seeing a river seems to run through the whole country. What's that river?

Speaker 2: 10:43

Dniep runs through the whole country. What's that river Dnieper runs?

Speaker 1: 10:47

through the whole country.

Speaker 2: 10:49

It's funny, on my map it says Desna D-E-S-N-A.

Speaker 1: 10:52

Oh, actually that's a part through your town actually.

Speaker 2: 10:55

That's right, desna goes to Chernihiv, the Dnieper goes to Dnieper.

Speaker 1: 11:00

I believe D-N-I-P-R-O, maybe with something else Dnipro.

Speaker 2: 11:07

Dnipro River From a tourist point of view. There's a lot of boats that go up that particular river and follow its course through Ukraine and places north and south.

Speaker 1: 11:19

It's interesting. It looks like, yeah, it's basically the very top of the country, all the way to the Black Sea.

Speaker 2: 11:26

It sure does, right to the Black Sea. Yeah, that's right. I believe it comes out at Odessa, if I'm not mistaken.

Speaker 1: 11:35

Oh, yeah, I see it there, Odessa, and there's another town near it is Mykolaiv. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:41

Mykolaiv, so that. So going back to modern history, so Mikulai was one of the major battles. The town has been largely destroyed, whereas Odessa hasn't been Nice. If you're looking at the map from your point of view and go to the right up around, you'll see Mariupol. Mariupol was the largest battle in the south, beautiful city completely laid to waste. Sounds like there's a lot of that, unfortunately. There is a lot of that. So we're going to be going to Ukraine shortly, right, because we've got, you know, we've got houses there and we've got stuff there and things we have to look after. So, you know, would I recommend anybody go for a big visit in the South or in the east? I don't think so, but would I tell a couple or an individual that's traveling that's somewhat more adventurous? Would I say, oh, don't go to Kiev. No, I'd say go to Kiev, go to Lviv, and be really careful. Even during the height of the war in Afghanistan, there were plenty of tourists going.

Speaker 1: 12:41

When was the last time you were there?

Speaker 2: 12:42

So last time I was there was just over a year ago. I really haven't been able to go back, probably going back next month.

Speaker 1: 12:49

How long are you going for?

Speaker 2: 12:52

Probably only a couple of weeks. When the war started to cool down a little bit last April and the Russians started pulling back to the east, the government actually was encouraging people to come and visit, to come and see it for themselves. Government actually was encouraging people to come and visit, to come and see it for themselves. Ukrainian history is a history of horror, war, famine, starvation, holocaust. That's all one perspective of it, right? But you know, from this kind of history has risen this incredible people right, which you know the world is now watching them. Right, the world sees this incredible people in action. Zelensky, right when he was offered a safe haven outside of Ukraine, he said I don't need a ride, I need ammo. That's a quote. Wow, you know so. And they're incredibly proud, incredibly proud of being Ukrainian, incredibly proud of their history, and there's an awful lot that we can learn from them. I mean, it was only back in 1991 that they claimed independence again from the Soviet Union, but this was the second time they'd claimed independence from Russia. The first time was in 1970. But then Russia invaded them and that finished that discussion for 17 years.

Speaker 2: 14:11

So, western Ukraine, right on the Polish border, you'll see that the main town there is a place called Lviv, and Lviv has swapped hands over and over again. I mean, it's been Swedish, it's been Polish, it's been Russian, it's been German, it's been yeah, and although mostly you won't see any German culture there, because that was during World War II, because of this kind of extreme mixed background, you'll find that this is where the nationalism, and a positive kind of nationalism, is very profound. There's nobody more Ukrainian than the Ukrainians in the West. There's often a misapprehension that I hear in the media where people talk about oh, they discern the Russian-speaking Ukrainians as being pro-Russian and the Ukrainian-speaking Ukrainians as pro-Ukrainian. Everybody in Ukraine speaks Russian.

Speaker 1: 15:00

Oh really.

Speaker 2: 15:01

Everybody, yeah, everybody speaks Russian.

Speaker 1: 15:06

Is it like a national language where everyone has to learn in school, kind of like america?

Speaker 2: 15:09

well, they had to. During the soviet union there was, you know, one hour of ukrainian per week taught and the rest was russian, because that was the soviet language. So if you go from the west moving out east, you know, out in the west the day-to-day language is definitely ukrainian. People will speak russian but they won't. They won't admit it. And then as you move further and further east it becomes progressively more russian to the point where up on the north and northeast of the country the predominant language is russian, even in cherniv a lot of our where you're at it seems like they don't speak.

Speaker 2: 15:44

They't speak a lot of them don't ever speak Ukrainian. They speak Russian.

Speaker 1: 15:48

Is there a big difference between the two languages? I know sometimes you can understand it, but there's accents.

Speaker 2: 15:56

There's definitely an accent. So when Ukrainians speak Russian and they're very proud of it, they have a very distinct accent and grammatically, because it's a second language, it's more pure than, for example, somebody comes from Moscow.

Speaker 1: 16:12

I mean.

Speaker 2: 16:12

Russia has a population of about 140 million people or so. 30 million of them have direct family members in Ukraine and vice versa 30 million per se yeah 30 million yeah, a good quarter.

Speaker 2: 16:27

So this conflict is much more akin to the American Civil War than other wars. I mean, you know, it's pulling families apart. I mean we have friends that we don't speak to anymore who simply have taken the Russian view. And, what's really interesting, a lot of these people they're not so much pro, the ones that are Ukrainians that are pro-Russian not really pro-Russian what they are they're probably mostly over the age of 50, and they have fond memories of what life was like in the Soviet Union. You know life in the Soviet Union everybody had a job, everybody got paid, everybody had holidays, nobody was poor. There were some people who were very rich but nobody was poor.

Speaker 2: 17:18

And when the whole Soviet Union collapsed in the early 90s and took independence, it was the Wild West and you know, very few people benefited enormously from the collapse. Right Today you call them oligarchs. I mean, we know stories of people, because Chernihiv was a military airbase. We have stories of people who went to the airport and met Nigerian arms buyers and sold them airplanes for garbage bags full of US dollars and came home and dumped a million dollars on the floor. So you know, it was the Wild West and out of that Wild West has come this very raw democracy that was really just getting enriched under Zelensky when the Russians attacked, and that's kind of why the Russians attacked. And this is like brother versus brother. They're Slavs and the Ukrainians are Slavs.

Speaker 1: 18:12

I see How's Belarus that looks like a pretty big country. Is it kind of like part of the Slav group?

Speaker 2: 18:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a Slavic country and it's kind of interesting. People say, well, slav, it sounds a lot like slave. Well, absolutely true, right? So the word slave came into the English language in about the early 13th or the late 13th century, and the reason it came in is it came from the Greek ex-Slav. That's because the Slavic people as we know them today Belarus, russians and Ukrainians were often forced into slavery, so they were called Slavs, and that's where that comes from. They're the Slavic nations. So, yes, they're all part of it, which is kind of that balance.

Speaker 2: 18:58

Nothing is more akin to hate than love, right? Nothing is felt more keenly than that when you have this peculiar relationship between family. Family, right, you can choose your friends, but not your family, and that's the problem. So the russians have always been trying to the hold them more right. Under stalin tried to starve the nation. Seven million ukrainians died, starved to death when they hoarded the ukrainian grain, and that was done on purpose. It's now recognized as a genocide as of 2006.

Speaker 2: 19:31

So, out of this tough history, everywhere you go, if you said, what is the core thing of your architecture is the religious architecture, you saw St Catharines. If you go to Kiev. Kiev is kind of built on hills, not unlike Rome. At the core of it are their religious buildings and monasteries. Right, it's very, very important as a cultural icon. And if you go in Kiev, if you go down the, if you go from the I believe it's called St Michael's If you go down from St Michael's down towards the town, you'll find Maidan Square, and Maidan Square is called Freedom Square. There are a lot of colorful buildings I'm looking at right now.

Speaker 2: 20:13

Well, there were colorful buildings.

Speaker 1: 20:14

and now there's some other pictures Beautiful architecture.

Speaker 2: 20:20

Oh, it's that whole part of town. So Krizyadzic Street right is the old town now and you go there. I mean there's museums and there's. You know, that's where the government is and that's where the churches are. I mean it's a phenomenal place just to visit. And what I like so much about Kiev is that, despite the fact that it's old Europe, it's not part of the EU. So it hasn't been, if you like, made gray. Because if you go to a lot of the European cities, you know, if you go to Paris or go to Cologne or go to, you know, amsterdam, or go to Berlin or Brussels, you know it's the same currency, it's the same conversations, it's the same issues, same news, it's very similar government, you know.

Speaker 2: 21:06

and it's just gotten kind of great, okay, yeah, yeah kind of whereas if you go to Kiev, right, it's just very different. I mean it's you know you're back in a foreign country, you're back in something which is not really like any other city across Europe. If you look at the medieval times, the Rus Empire, which included Belarus, ukraine and Russia as we know it today, kiev was the capital of the Rus Empire. Oh okay, gotcha. So it was there before Moscow and, interestingly, chernihiv, my little town, was there before Kiev.

Speaker 1: 21:42

Oh wow, look at that, oh my goodness, before keith. Oh wow, look at that, oh my goodness.

Speaker 2: 21:49

Yeah, I see a big, very large statue facing the river with uh yeah, mother keith. So if you look at any of the ukrainian symbols, so sometimes you see your korean flag and it has in the middle of it it has the ukrainian. I guess you'd almost call it a, a coat of arms. Right, she's in the middle of that. She's mother ukraine. You know, you hear people talk about mother russia. Mother russia is actually ukraine. So then you start understanding why it is that people who are have a czarist nature are very interested in reclaiming ukraine right. At the same time, though, you also understand why a lot of other countries, like the Baltic states, although they're very nervous, they're not really a threat In the same way that places like Ukraine and Moldova and things that would be considered part of Mother Russia, the old Rus' empire, would be. This is my point of view, but it's not necessarily an unread point of view.

Speaker 1: 22:47

So Kiev? What's the density there? It looks very populated like lots and lots.

Speaker 2: 22:54

Is it like a?

Speaker 1: 22:54

New York or a Dallas.

Speaker 2: 22:57

There's a commonality between the old Soviet cities, right? So there are parts you'd go to in Kiev and you'd say, oh, this looks like Warsaw, which looks like Moscow, which looks like. And that's because during the 1950s they had this massive rebuilding program, because the whole former Soviet Union had been laid flat by the Nazis, so they built what you'd call the Stalinist apartment buildings, and they all still stand there and they're just outside the center of town, and these are now sprawling cities. So Kiev is a population Greater. Kiev is probably 7 to 10 million people out of a population of 45 million. Okay, right so, but it takes you forever to drive across it.

Speaker 1: 23:42

Okay, Like out of the area California traffic.

Speaker 2: 23:46

Yeah, oh, yeah. Oh, actually I've been there. It's much worse.

Speaker 1: 23:52

Oh goodness, Is there a train been there? It's much worse, oh goodness.

Speaker 2: 23:54

Is there a?

Speaker 1: 23:54

train system. Is that pretty common yeah?

Speaker 2: 23:57

yeah, if you want to move around Ukraine, the way to do it is by train. It's relatively I mean, it's very inexpensive and it connects all the major cities right. So there's an overnighter to Odessa. You would come in from Warsaw I think it's Warsaw or Poznań In you would come in from Warsaw, or I think it's Warsaw or Poznań In Poland. You'd come into Lviv and from Lviv you'd go by train out to Kiev. The train between Kiev and Chernihiv is no longer there, so you're busing it.

Speaker 1: 24:25

Is there a palace there?

Speaker 2: 24:26

Where. I'm looking at pictures of Kiev and it's kind of a baby blue either, or seafoam, green and yellow building. If it's old, the monasteries are very palatial looking Okay, yeah, okay. So you have pre-1970 buildings, so pre-Soviet Union, and you've got post-Soviet Union buildings, or buildings, some that were built during then, and Kiev is a massive mix of all this different architecture it sure is.

Speaker 1: 24:57

This picture looks like you see the castle and some trees and then you see, like what looks like New York with all the regular buildings yeah, oh, there's a lot.

Speaker 2: 25:05

There's a lot of that I mean yeah, I mean, some of the building, some of the building programs going on in Kiev are astounding, and a lot of this is because if you work in Kiev, you know and you think, oh, I'll go live in the suburbs. Yeah, that doesn't work. It can take you two hours to get in.

Speaker 1: 25:22

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:23

But there's a great metro system right. So underground, or what do you guys call it? Subway Subway, thank you. Ground, or what do you guys call it? Um, subway subway, thank you. There's a great tube system throughout keith. Properties that are close to the tube stations are more expensive. Yeah, because so the tube station it's quite good and the train system is quite good. There's buses everywhere, every town has got buses and it's all very, very cheap yeah, yeah, it's all very, very cheap.

Speaker 2: 25:51

Yeah, it's all very, very cheap. It's still not unusual. Certainly, I probably did this more in Moscow than I did in Kiev, but if you're walking down the street and you need to go somewhere, you just stick out your hand and people will stop and you'll say this is where I want to go, and they'll say, okay, I'll go there, and it's going to cost you X number of rubles or X number of grivna.

Speaker 1: 26:17

And they'll just take you. Okay, I would not ride a bicycle around Kiev, that's for sure, since most people speak Russian and many speak Ukrainian. Can you?

Speaker 2: 26:25

get away with English. Is there much English going on there, right? So, people younger than 40, people younger than 40, 40, 45, there's much more English spoken People older than 50, it's very, very seldom and a lot of this is industry associated. So the Ukrainian universities, the technical schools, pump out some of the world's best software and hardware engineers Some of the best. A lot of Western companies have gone to Lviv. In fact, how I first went there was working with a Western company that we set up our support and development center in Lviv. They speak English because the language of IT is English.

Speaker 2: 27:07

Interestingly, a lot of people Ukrainians, they want to work for Western companies, but they don't want to leave Ukraine to do so, and the reason is is that they can get although they won't get the same as, let's say, a California salary in IT or London salary in IT. They'll get pretty near it and continue living in a Ukrainian town. It and continue living in a Ukrainian town. And because it's IT and because everybody's a contractor, nobody's an employee, they pay like 5% tax, so they get paid an enormous chunk of cash. They live in a country where the cost of living is substantially lower than anywhere else, so life is pretty good for them. Having said that, the average salary across Ukraine on a monthly basis is like $500 a month.

Speaker 1: 27:59

Oh my goodness. And so cost of living, is it what like $100 for a mortgage?

Speaker 2: 28:05

Most people rent, although a lot of people own houses.

Speaker 2: 28:10

still, because during the Soviet era you were given a house or an apartment and, depending on where you were in terms of the, you know it's the animal farm right. All animals are created equal, but some more equal than others, so if you're one of the ones that were more equal than others, you got a bigger place. So Oksana's family her grandparents were hot shots in the local communist party, so her first apartment that she inherited was substantially larger than other people's apartments. It's almost like working in a Japanese company and traditionally, where you start off with no windows in your office and then you get one window and then two windows and then you're probably going to die anyway. You're going to be retired by the second window.

Speaker 2: 28:58

A lot of people own properties from the Soviet era and then, of course, if you have a reasonable job and you get more money I mean, my wife started doing gymnastics when she was four years old, so she went to one of the sports schools that had other things. So by the time she was 18, her career had come and gone as a gymnast, and then she became a teacher and then she took a master's degree in business administration never stood still started a line of sports stores, sports equipment stores, sold them right as the war started in 2014 and made a bomb for herself, right? So so a lot of people own stuff. Most people rent stuff and rent. If you're going to take it, it's going to cost you. If you're in keith, it ain't cheap. It's gonna be 500 to 2 000 typically. You can spend a lot of money in hotels and traveling, but mostly what you do is you take these apartments. So if you go to bookingcom you'll see their apartments and they'll cost you between $15 and $50 a night. Travel and tourism is cheap.

Speaker 2: 30:01

The cost of food I'll give you an idea. One of the best sushi places on the planet is in Chernihiv and I've eaten sushi all over the world. It's absolutely astounding. You go to this place and say how is it even possible that this place even has a sushi restaurant? It's amazing. And they sell it by the weight. So they sell it by the weight, so you get different kinds and obviously, if it's got, depending on what's in it, the weight will be a little more expensive. So I sit down and imagine a kilo is 2.2 pounds, so 2.2 pounds of sushi Starters. Starters are three people. I don't drink but other people will, right, so they'll have a bottle of wine or something and it's $35.

Speaker 1: 30:50

Wow, yeah, wow and Wow.

Speaker 2: 30:53

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 30:55

This is pre-war. Yeah it's pre-war, but it's open.

Speaker 2: 30:59

So that place is open now, right, okay.

Speaker 1: 31:03

So it's always been inexpensive. It's not just because of the time.

Speaker 2: 31:07

So it's inexpensive. The thing that makes food or going out there cheap is the cost of labor. Okay, that's what makes it. Or going out there cheap is the cost of labor Okay, that's what makes it cheap. Because food is not cheap, you go to a supermarket and go shopping and buy things that you would, for example, here. You're going to pay the same, if not more, as you would here in London.

Speaker 1: 31:26

Okay, so a lot of places we go. Okay, if you want to save money, just go to the grocery store and do it In Ukraine opposite. If you want to save money, just go to the grocery store and do it in ukraine opposite.

Speaker 2: 31:32

if you want to save money, go out to eat if you want to save money and you're traveling, definitely go out to eat or go to local ukrainian uh markets. But you know you go there, you're going to see stuff you don't recognize yes, who is doing sushi?

Speaker 1: 31:46

did someone come from there? Is it local person? And then, where do they get their fish? Is it from the river or where do they get their?

Speaker 2: 31:53

some of it's brought in from the black sea and it's brought in from the mediterranean, and I imagine some of it starts off as frozen. You get eel, raw eel, right so, but eel comes from everywhere, right so. So you get eel and you get uh. I even get uh soft shell crab. They do use a lot of things that probably other people wouldn't, so you get, I mean I don't. They do use a lot of things that probably other people wouldn't, so you get. I mean I don't know, but there's a lot of use of Philadelphia cream cheese, but I'm telling you you'd love it, do they have avocados.

Speaker 2: 32:22

They have avocados. You get avocados. You can't be guaranteed it all the time, right, but there are avocados. Having said that, every time I go to Ukraine I take about 10 of them with me. Ok, those and Reese Reesey peanut butter cups.

Speaker 1: 32:41

That's my daughter's name, reese. There we go, there we go.

Speaker 2: 32:48

Yeah. So eating out not expensive. Traveling not expensive. Stay eating out not expensive. Traveling not expensive. Staying places not expensive.

Speaker 2: 32:56

You asked about whether or not it's safe. Right, I've never felt physically threatened Now, but you know I'm not a small person. I mean, if you're going to mug somebody you wouldn't say, oh, I'm going to go mug that guy Probably not your first thought. You just don't hear about it.

Speaker 2: 33:14

People have tried to scam me before on the street, right. So the big scam there is that you'd be walking along and suddenly you see a plastic envelope, you know, a see-through envelope full of cash lying on the floor and they usually drop it outside of a bank. And they look at you and you think, oh, I'm going to. As you pick it up it was my first day in Kiev, actually I picked up a look, I said that's unusual. So I walk in the bank Also, this guy walks up to me. He says hey, and he said you know, it's just quite good Say hey, money, I'm going to give it to the bank. He said I'll tell you what he says. Why don't we just take the money and we'll split it between us? I said no, no, no, I'm not going to do that and all of a sudden his buddy comes up and says hey, I dropped my money here, when you got my money, and they'll try to grab your wallet. So it's like a distraction.

Speaker 2: 34:09

It's a distraction thing. It's a distraction thing. But then I told them I wasn't going to be distracted and had some very kind words for them and they left me Good thing, you were a police officer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't bother telling them that they just thought I was a dumb American tourist.

Speaker 1: 34:27

So I have an off-the-wall question, so you live in the UK right now, right, or definitely spend a lot of time there. I was listening to another podcast and was talking about safety and this gentleman said oh, uk is not so safe. He's like you go out to a pub. He's like I get hit in the face once a month. He's like there's always a brawl and I don't know if it's. This guy is like antagonistic. Do you hear about that?

Speaker 2: 34:52

He should probably stop drinking, maybe part of the problem. So let me say so, in the UK, you'll hear, in London there's a lot of knifings and that's you know. That's gang on gang. That's what that is. I have two sons who are doctors. One of them worked for two and a half years in a local hospital here in Newham, and Newham is gang city. His every night was knifings. You had a guy come in and stick a knife in the face of a nurse. So it won't happen to you.

Speaker 2: 35:26

Okay, it's always been my view of trouble, right, my view of trouble has always been. Most people I know have never been punched in the face in their lives. So when somebody says I got punched in the face, my first question is well, what were you doing? Well, I was out drinking with friends. My other son, who's now an orthopedic surgeon he called me up when he was at university. He went to university in Nottingham and Nottingham is a tough town, right, okay, I mean, it's a tough town and he's a university kid and he's my son's. Six foot two. He looks like a private school boy and he's quite arrogant, you know, and hasn't gotten better since he's become a surgeon at all. So he called me up at two o'clock in the morning. He says dad, I said what? I got punched in the face. I said are you out nodding? He said yep. I said were you wearing your salmon pink jacket?

Speaker 2: 36:14

he said yes, how did you know I would have punched you in the face so you know you just kind of blend in a little bit more, as we were saying yeah, you gotta just just you know it's salmon pink jacket and it was brown cords and you know that'll definitely get you punched and nodding. So I don't think. I don't think london's unsafe right there are. You know, it's a bit like anywhere. So I live in a place called rotherhithe, which is right on the river, so I go out my front door and I'm on the thames river. Rotherhithe is really nice. It feels like a village. Just as you walk towards the city center of town, you go through bermondsey, bermondsey's rough right, no question about it. I would not walk through Bermondsey at night by myself. I wouldn't do it. You're just asking for it. But London really is not. The good news is you're probably not going to get a shot. I've never felt unsafe in London. I have felt more unsafe in London than I did in Kiev. Okay, Interesting.

Speaker 1: 37:11

I always like to hear about from a local perspective, if there's any, anything that may not be, you know, ruled or something that you would search in Ukraine that you would recommend visiting, or a kind of a festival and, you know, holiday. That's really special, that really brings out people and the fun I didn't know. If there's anything that you highlighted that.

Speaker 2: 37:33

Well, so, generally speaking, in Ukraine there's a lot of religious festivals, big religious days, right, and they're always fun. Every town will have fairs around these things. The other thing which is actually really big in Ukraine, as it is across the whole of former Soviet Union, is Liberation Day, when they pushed the Nazis out. That's a massive celebration, right in May. I mean, ukraine lost 8 million men during World War II, of which 2.5 million were killed on the front. But the Soviet Union on the whole, the whole, lost 22 million, yeah, and it's even hard to fathom, right. I mean, if you the whole war was including asia, was 60 million, right, so russia, soviet union, accounts for, you know, a third of it plus. So there's a massive celebration. That's actually a very big event.

Speaker 2: 38:33

The one thing people don't associate, uh, ukraine with quick is is skiing, oddly enough. So if you look down at levive, you'll see from there you'll go towards, towards romania. You see the carpathian mountains, yeah, towards romania, you'll see that bordering there's a mountain range. It's called Carpathia or the Carpathian Mountains. That's where I've done wonderful skiing there, right, and again, if you want a relatively inexpensive skiing holiday, that's a great place and there's always snow. I mean, there's one thing you know about Ukraine going to be snow and it's going to be cold, oh gotcha. So that's there.

Speaker 2: 39:14

Um so, levive that town, fabulous place to visit. I don't know if you have you ever been to oxford or leiden and holland. It's a university town and on the one hand, it's university town and it's middle ages through to neoclassical times the architecture, cobblestone streets, fabulous food and a massive coffee culture, which is just like the last thing in the world that I expect. That they even have a coffee museum oh wow, and a coffee mine, yeah, and they do fabulous sweets. Digital Nomad Country oh, okay, gotcha, they sit in the coffee shops and develop software and it's quite a young place, right, and so it's a beautiful, beautiful place, and if I were to do a tour, I'd definitely come in from Poland. Hit Lviv, do Lviv.

Speaker 2: 40:10

If it was wintertime, I'd definitely come in from Poland. Hit Lviv, do Lviv. If it was wintertime, I'd go to Carpathia and go skiing, but if it wasn't, I'd take the train and go up to Kiev, which is about five, six hours. I'd break the bank then and spend a little bit more money than I would otherwise and I'd take the first class on the train because very few people in it on the first class. So instead of spending 30, you spend 50. And into keeve and really get to the center of keeve fabulous restaurants, great museums, interesting places to see. They have outdoor museum for the, the great war museum, but when they say great war they mean world war ii and it is. It's acres and acres and acres of tanks and trenches and airplanes, and so if anybody likes that kind of thing thing to do and then of course there's all the uh, religious architecture and that museum was in key.

Speaker 2: 41:06

okay, okay, gotcha. One of the big things in levive is the national cemetery, and the thing about the national cemetery in Lviv is the National Cemetery, and the thing about the National Cemetery is that it is exactly that. So all the big figures from history and Ukrainian history are buried there. It kind of is a mirror image of its history. So buried there are Ukrainian soldiers, polish soldiers I even found American airmen who were buried there in 1917. And so there's Polish, there's Germans, there's military cemeteries from every nation imaginable.

Speaker 1: 41:37

Interesting. Yeah, my brother was in Poland doing some background check, like my great grandfather, my grandfather, I don't know. My grandfather, my great grandfather was in you know, some of these wars and stuff. So I'm like, maybe, maybe he was in the cemeteries cemetery, so I don't know. Like we're trying to find out, you know what he did exactly? It's so interesting there's anything anyway.

Speaker 2: 41:58

Anyway, I can help. I I'd glad, I'd gladly do so because I mean, I have a friend, uh, in new york city, who his family comes from, from ukraine. Yeah, and of course, the, the holocaust and ukraine are synonymous, right. I mean um memorials in kiev where, you know, in a matter of three days the fascists rounded up 30 000 jews, killed them in a ravine, and then three days later they brought in 30 000 gypsies. Until then, interesting, even in, even in my town, in chernihiv's a, so it was a very large Jewish community and they were all murdered down in a ravine. I mean, very few people survived it, I think about 200 or so out of thousands. During the Soviet era they removed the idea that it was a. You know specifically Jewish people and they said they were Soviet heroes Because the Soviet Union, russia and other, and I would say in some cases even Ukraine, is quite anti-Semitic. There is that history.

Speaker 1: 43:01

Yeah, and I can appreciate there's so much rich history, both good and bad. I know there's quite a bit with the current situation and I'm curious also just from the people and just getting to know them and I know that we've got the rapid fire questions. To wrap up, what is it that they love and really enjoy doing and sports that they like to do and skiing, I'm assuming and like something cold.

Speaker 2: 43:27

So not a lot of sports, not a lot of people do skiing because it's, you know, even on the Ukrainian budget it's quite expensive, but you know, historically they're a big gymnast country, that's for sure Ice hockey is very big.

Speaker 1: 43:41

I was going to say hockey, that's gross.

Speaker 2: 43:43

Hockey is very big Weightlifting, competitive weightlifting, I suppose it's like other places, but you won't find you know's, a lot of basketball, football, soccer, rather it's massive right, and I was curious also because you said it's very cold there and it sounds like the sports you're saying are kind of indoor and cold.

Speaker 1: 44:02

Is it the climate there, year-round cold, and when is a good time to travel there? So um, is it green in the summers, with flowers, or is it like?

Speaker 2: 44:12

what it's summertime is is is can get very hot, yeah, so they have serious seasons, right. So summertime, you know, I think, the best, my in my own view, for me, the best time to visit ukraine. Certainly the summer is a good time. If you are hyper heat sensitive, you need air conditioning all the time in the heat, not a place to go, because it's few and far between. And one recommendation is if you want air conditioning and you're going to stay somewhere, you better put it in your uh, in your filter, say, I want air con because otherwise it won't be there. And so summertime can be quite hot and quite sticky.

Speaker 1: 44:52

What's the temperature would you say that it would be?

Speaker 2: 44:56

So in Celsius it's between 25 and 45 degrees. I mean it can get real hot, depending on where you are. Spring is awesome.

Speaker 1: 45:09

And what's their spring like From when to when Is it? Like same, like february to may no, no, it'll be.

Speaker 2: 45:16

No, no, it'll be march, march, march, april. I mean I've, I've been in snowstorms there in march, yeah. So march, april, right through to end of august, that's your summer, that's your summer. So your spring is really March through to March, through to May, yeah, and then it can get very, very hot. Awesome is another great time there. It's a real awesome. So you know it gets cool, you know you're, you're out of the heat. You know traveling, you know, september through to mid November, depending on where you are. I mean, global warming is also affecting there. So you know you don't always get snow on the ground in November, but I've been there where snow started everywhere the 10th of November and didn't leave until March, end of March, and you got minus 10 to minus 30 degrees Celsius. Yeah, it's serious winter.

Speaker 1: 46:16

Yes, that sounds very cold. Thanks so much, Sherry. And just a last quick question with someone who's out in Jersey and hiking. Is there mountains? I don't know if there's any Absolutely. And just a last quick question with someone who's out in Jersey and hiking and out Is there mountains. I don't know if there's any Absolutely Recommend for folks.

Speaker 2: 46:34

Again, carpathian Mountains, wonderful for hiking and walking, endless woodland and forest, and it's not that kind of thing. So it's not laid out to a bunch of tracks and you'd walk across places and you're going to have to make your own path to the woodland and there are thousands and thousands of acres of woods Up in Carpathia. There'll be trails and walking and going from town to town and it's quite supportive and better organized. But it's not like the UK where you know you've got walking trails, that you know that go north to south of the country, east to west, and that doesn't exist. You know you have to make up your own thing. And so one thing I did find is that if you go, you know, in the summertime, if you go down the rivers, a lot of people go to the rivers and they've created beaches and things, mosquitoes, oh yes, oh yeah, lots of them bring yours kind of like a minnesota climate a little bit you have like these winters very cold

Speaker 2: 47:36

and then the summers I would say that's yeah, I would say similar. I would say similar, okay, and carpathian is with the c listeners.

Speaker 1: 47:44

I typing in K and couldn't find it, so Carpe. Diem, I'm sorry, it looks like it goes all the way from Romania and into Slovakia as well. The last question is just I see the very southern part is all water and I didn't know if there's kind of what that's like.

Speaker 2: 48:05

So the Black Sea is. You know? I don't know if you surf on the black sea I don't, I don't know, right, I don't surf but certainly Odessa. Odessa is a famous seaside resort and, yeah, seaside resort, fantastic, and people go there from all over Ukraine other places it could be quite international. Odessa is is definitely the seaside resort and it's quite expensive, right. So prior to this war it was full of Russians coming there and going on holiday. If I was went to Kiev and I had a couple of weeks in in Ukraine, I would definitely take the overnighter to uh, to odessa it looks beautiful there's some pictures I'm seeing.

Speaker 1: 48:53

Yeah, they've got well. Some of them are fog and just kind of regular things I'd see in san francisco, but then a lot of them are blue and looks nice yeah, and the black sea is not known to be a warm thing to be in yeah, I see a cruise ship there, probably just oh yeah, there's cruise ships. Odessa is one of the ports yeah, yeah, it looks like it so wonderful.

Speaker 2: 49:16

Well, thank you so, okay, some of that go to my rapid fire questions.

Speaker 1: 49:21

So we talk a little bit about food. But what's what's your favorite dish there?

Speaker 2: 49:25

so there's two. I love borscht. My wife makes a fabulous borscht. Okay, right, I happen to be a bit of a fan of salo that I take it easy on that. Um, but they shaslik, right, which is basically skewered pork on a on an open grill with their special shaslik sauce, and so so I'll go to a Ukrainian restaurant. You know you go to Soslik house and you get that and borscht, and it costs you $5.

Speaker 1: 49:54

And what kind of sauce is on that?

Speaker 2: 49:57

A spice marinade. When it's served, it's served with quite a spicy oniony dip, which is really, which is awesome. Highly recommend Sawls like.

Speaker 1: 50:08

Okay, and this solemn, that's the one that's like a pierogi. No, no, salo is is oh this is cold, because if it's cold it's okay for you, but if it's warm, then it's not okay.

Speaker 2: 50:26

Okay.

Speaker 1: 50:26

And what do you, what would you typically have for breakfast when you're there? Oatmeal, oatmeal, Okay. And what about the music?

Speaker 2: 50:36

Was there some like cultural music? Obviously there's cultural music, a lot of different folk music. There's a particular band that's called Okian Elzy. Okian O-K-E-A-N. Okian Elzy, e-l-z-y. Okian Elzy. Okay, it's a fabulous band. I mean, I just love the music. They only do Ukrainian music and songs. Oh, okay, got it.

Speaker 1: 51:03

I always think of like the polka type of music. Is there anything like?

Speaker 2: 51:06

that or not at all. There's lots of that folk music, but if you want to get a sense of modern Ukrainian, I would definitely go with Okyan Eltsi, and I don't understand everything they're saying. I still just listen to it all the time. I just love it. That's right. What's the?

Speaker 1: 51:24

dance. Can I dance to it? That's my thing.

Speaker 2: 51:27

Yeah, you can dance to all of this. Nice, love it yeah.

Speaker 1: 51:30

Okay, I'm going to skip the surf, because we already talked about that no surfing nearby. And the money you mentioned a few different kinds of money to transact, right.

Speaker 2: 51:39

So the currency there is called. It's pronounced Grievner, but it's spelled H's are pronounced there as we pronounce it, g. Okay, so it's H-R-V-N-Y-A, so Grievner.

Speaker 1: 51:55

Grievner Okay.

Speaker 2: 51:56

Yeah, the exchange rate it varies constantly, but right now you're looking at about 36 Grievner to a dollar. Okay, yeah, which is an exceptionally good exchange rate. But having said that and this is important for people that are visiting yeah, don't change your money at just any old bank. Yeah, there are people who will accost you on the street, and it's completely legitimate, and they will ask you if you want to change your money. Right, money, it's completely legitimate, and they will ask you if you want to change your money. Money changes on the street and that's good. Yeah, it's good. You get a much better rate. You get a much better rate Always with dollars, always with dollars and euros. You can get that done. Pounds more difficult. You usually have to go into a bank to do that. Generally speaking, the money traders hang out. There'll be more than one of them standing on a street and it feels dodgy, but it's not.

Speaker 1: 52:54

So a lady in Argentina, she said kind of similar experience, but she gave us some warning about like big bills or no big bills or something.

Speaker 2: 53:01

And if you are going to change money, you know even there or at a bank, you know they don't like to take any bill that's been marked right. So pens torn, wrinkle, don't want to touch it, don't know why, they just don't okay what about the um the credit card.

Speaker 1: 53:19

Some people say always use your credit card, you know if you have like the free foreign exchange rate so credit cards are now widely, widely accepted, but cash is always more accepted.

Speaker 2: 53:32

People like to do cash deals. Credit cards are usually okay, it just depends where you are. Not everybody accepts them, so your coffee shops, things like that, not interested. But that's certainly before the war, when it was becoming much more of a thing. I mean, very interestingly, a lot of the banking system hasn't been affected, right? So if I want to send money to an organization that's I don't know, we have a favorite organization that's looking after stray dogs and cats during the war, right, we can actually transfer money to their cards. Oh, okay, nice, yeah, which is what we do.

Speaker 1: 54:11

So all right, and then we had mentioned Robert and I had talked I don't know if I shared this with you, kristen that maybe we put some links in that if anyone wants to contribute to any organizations, robert will share some links to those that he knows directly are going to help so well. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 54:30

It was so fascinating Really appreciate it, and it was so informative history wise and where to go.

Speaker 1: 54:37

I just really appreciated learning about Ukraine from this perspective Cool Well, thank you. We'll take care. Bye-bye you too Bye-bye. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed the podcast, can you please take a second and do a quick follow of the show and rate us in your podcast app and if you have a minute, we would really appreciate a review. Following and rating is the best way to support us. If you're on Instagram, let's connect. We're at where next podcast. Thanks again.