Where Next? Travel with Kristen and Carol
Where Next? Travel with Kristen and Carol
Africa - Travel with Anouk
Interview with Anouk, a manager at African Portfolio (https://onsafari.com/).
Anouk tells her story of how she was born in the Netherlands, schooled in Malawi, Africa, then moved to the US - Texas, New York and then eventually to Colorado. She shares her knowledge of visiting and living in Africa and how tourism affects the local culture.
Please download, like, subscribe, share a review, and follow us on your favorite podcasts app and connect with us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wherenextpodcast/
View all listening options: https://wherenextpodcast.buzzsprout.com/
Hosts
Carol Springer: https://www.instagram.com/carol.work.life
Kristen: https://www.instagram.com/team_wake/
If you can, please support the show or you can buy us a coffee.
Hi, welcome to our podcast when Next Travel with Kristen and Carol. I am Kristen and I am Carol, and we're two long-term friends with a passion for travel and adventure. Each episode, we interview people around the globe to help us decide where to go next. In today's episode, we're meeting with Anouk, born in the Netherlands, schooled in Malawi, africa, an ex-New Yorker that now lives in Colorado and is the sales manager at African Portfolio, a safari company. She shares her knowledge of visiting and living in Africa and how tourism affects the local culture.
Speaker 2:Thanks, carol, nice to be here. Where are you originally from? So I'm originally Dutch. Both my parents are from Amsterdam and Holland, and when I was very young, like three, my dad got a job with the United Nations and so we first moved to Afghanistan for two years, and after that was in the early 70s, and after that my dad spent the next 30 years working in Southern Africa mostly some East Africa too, some East Africa too.
Speaker 2:So I ended up growing up and doing nearly all my schooling in Malawi, which is a little landlocked country in kind of South Central East Africa. It depends what you read as to where they put it officially on the continent. So it lies between Mozambique, tanzania and Zambia. It's a little known place, but I loved it. I kind of feel like that's home. I lived there for most of the time from when I was about five to 19. I went to boarding school there there was one international school in the country and I was a boarder from the age of 11 on. And then, when I was 16, I went to boarding school in England for the last two years of high school just to get a slightly better education and to get me to wear shoes and to get used to being in Europe somewhat civilized, so-called and I ended up studying in the UK which is why I also have this very British accent and I did my master's in the UK as well, and then I moved to the US.
Speaker 1:What's your degree and your master's?
Speaker 2:in the UK as well. And then I moved to the US. What's your degree and your master's in? I did, surprise, surprise. I did anthropology as my bachelor's degree and then I did third world development studies like politics, sociology, economics of third world in Bath.
Speaker 2:My dream was also to work for Oxfam or the UN or something like that. But I met and married an American and we moved to Texas. Even though I'd spent a year in Nicaragua at some point along the way as a volunteer, I my Spanish was just not good enough and and most of the work, or any kind of that type of work, was in the states, of course focused more on Central and South America. I had done all my research and, you know, spent all the time in Africa, basically, or Asia, you know, anywhere that the Brits had colonies is kind of where the focus of studying is there. So yeah, so then I ended up working in travel because I traveled so much, I enjoyed the perks. So my husband and I just we traveled a lot. We backpacked all over Asia, southeast Asia, africa, all over that, that funded that part of my life.
Speaker 1:When did you do all the backpacking. So this was when you first met before you got married.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so during college, of course you know some from when, like from 18 onwards, and then we really just uh, we, you know, Austin, texas was great in the early nineties because it was so cheap to live and working at the student travel agency so I got free flights everywhere. So we did. We would, yeah, either leave jobs or take take a few. You know, six weeks, five it's very un-American. We settled down, we then moved to New York and thought, all right, let's stop the slacker lifestyle, and ended up, you know, moving there and getting more serious, I I guess, about jobs.
Speaker 1:But yeah, and how did you end up in?
Speaker 2:Boulder. You know, we picked it on a map. We had two boys and we were living in the Hudson Valley in New York for about 10 years and my husband was commuting into the city and we just felt like we wanted to, you know, give them a different, like you know go to public school and be able to ride a bus or bike to school and have a little bit more independence as they grew up that way. And, yeah, it was a good move. We actually knew literally not a single person. We hadn't even been to boulder and and we moved here. Oh really, I researched every school in on the planet. Actually it could have been like new zealand or anywhere, but in the end I thought, well, he's American.
Speaker 1:You know there's a lot to see and do here. It's a good place to live.
Speaker 2:So here we are, and how long have you been in Boulder now Since gosh? Almost 10 years, I guess, and nine years, nine and a half years. So we moved here in 2012.
Speaker 1:And how are you? Are you settled now in Boulder? Are you looking, huh? And how are you? Are you settled now in Boulder, are you?
Speaker 2:looking. I think you know, yeah, I keep telling myself I have to be, because you know I could move any minute. No, I like it, and you know, I think that the rule is what. My youngest just started college in San Diego, and so I think the rule of thumb is to stay put for the first two years at least, so they have a home left, um, and then we'll see yes, and and so the we'll see what was uh, whether you're uh.
Speaker 1:It's funny I'm asking this selfishly also for Carol, because we're both in exactly the same not not yet there, two years behind getting there right no what's your vision? Or if you could pick anything, how would it? How, how would that look?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, I would live in Victoria Falls or Cape Town.
Speaker 2:I would love to go back to live in Africa, honestly, for a few years, but I know that you know it's difficult to settle.
Speaker 2:You know we have so many people in our lives that have settled in Africa but then when they get to 70 or 80 and their health deteriorates and they realize you end up needing family. You know, I think we all have elderly parents too, and so to, you know, to throw it all in and sell everything and get up and move to a country that will never be yours, I think is difficult. So I would say I'm trying to be really mature here and be like look, I could go for two years or five years and rent out a house in the States, so you have someone to go back to, because we've seen, you know, my parents live the expat style and you know they've ended up living somewhat solitary lives in very tiny places back in Holland you know right, if they, if they, they could have had it all if they'd just been a little bit smarter about not giving up a house or not giving up all your ties.
Speaker 2:Because think, as you hit, as you really get older, or you know you want your grandkids. You know that's the thing I'd love to move now or in the next few years, just for a while. But I think once your kids have kids and they might need you, then I feel like people are drawn back to where they are and that's just the way it is so I'm again, I'm smart and learn from my parents and all their friends. Mistakes.
Speaker 1:I have this little window before the babies, the grandbabies, come you know, hopefully five years, ten years yeah, exactly right, exactly.
Speaker 2:You have that magical hopefully decades where they're settled and they don't need you but you're there on the call and you know they can come out and visit you hopefully. But but yeah, especially nowadays when you can really work from anywhere. But you've got to realize you're always an outsider right, so that you know the little community you have of other foreigners is really appealing and it's wonderful, but everyone will come and go. I mean, I grew up in a place where, literally you know, I have friends all over the world and many, many friends, luckily.
Speaker 1:But that's also because all my best friends left after a year, every year, throughout my life, because you know contracts ended and those families moved around and it's a bit like being a military, you know.
Speaker 2:I would say I've met military um kids here in the US, you know, or that are now adults and it's a similar. It's a lot more exotic, I think, and you know lifestyle if you're a UN kid or an expat kid of that kind, but it's, it's a similar thing yeah, and, and that in terms of boarding school you'd have is.
Speaker 1:Are you talking that that time period or yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I love boarding school, but no, it's right, even when we were in just a regular elementary school in Malawi, like everybody. You know, people, move on. You know, people move on. You know as well.
Speaker 2:I mean obviously you've got people who are from that country and live there and that's but they. But they would move on too because their parents obviously to be able to afford an international school fee. You know their parents were doing pretty well and they would also travel and move around and seek. Especially a country like Malawi is incredibly dirt poor and at the time where I grew up there was a dictator in place. So even if you're a successful business person, you had to leave the country. You were too successful to avoid your success being taken over by the government at the time. So, whether you were Malawian or something from elsewhere, you moved along.
Speaker 1:So I'm just curious as a kid. So do you have any siblings?
Speaker 2:I do. I have one brother and he now lives in Holland and he met his wife in China. So he's still traveled quite a bit too in his adult years. Um, but they settled in Holland and he is not. He is not left. He, he wanted a much more settled life for his kids. He, he did not have the same, I think, positive experiences. I did as much, especially at boarding school. He's just a different personality.
Speaker 1:And then, what did your parents do that they brought you to Malawi and Africa for so long?
Speaker 2:So my dad is a civil engineer and he worked for the United Nations and he worked for the Dutch government and the Finnish government, so various aid work.
Speaker 2:He was a development worker, so he did. He built houses and bridges and roads and planned future, what the towns and cities would need. In Malawi Every contract lasts literally a year or two years. For a lot of these World Bank, imf, un they're very short contracts and so in that sense you keep applying for new ones. So I was really unusual in Malawi to stay that long, as long as we did. We lived in Kenya for about a year. In between we also would move back to Holland for a few months, which was really difficult to adjust actually, and I hated it very much. So I will never. I much prefer to be in Malawi or in Africa. I mean, it was nice to have shops to go to or you know, you could buy stuff, I guess. But I know I couldn't. I hated the weather, I hated the people, it was so crowded and you couldn't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just didn't yeah, we heard it's um. We interviewed someone that spent a lot of time in the Netherlands and she talked about how much it rained quite a bit, so it's.
Speaker 2:It's the most miserable weather you can imagine and it's extremely crowded and everything is concrete and I and I hated every kind of it nothing has been, has been untouched by man, so I, that was not my that was okay, not for you.
Speaker 1:So this Victoria Falls that you mentioned, that's in Zimbabwe, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, they straddle, yep, so it's a Victoria Falls town is in Zimbabwe. The Victoria Falls themselves kind of straddle Zimbabwe and Zambia the two countries but that's always been my happy place. My dad lived in zimbabwe after we left malawi for for eight years and I visited him there a few times and I've gone back quite a lot since and I just it reminds me of malawi. It's it's also landlocked and it's a little sleepy and and but the people are incredibly, uh, wonderful, and it under the british government there and then under mcgarvey where, before he turned old and bitter like all these dictators do, um, it was a really that the education was similar to cuba, you know, one of these really poor countries, for the education level is like 80 90 literacy and they had a real pride in education. I always loved zimbabwe because the country that it doesn't matter where you're from or the color you. You could just have good, equal conversations. That felt like without a lot of the baggage in zimbabwe, and I always loved that now did a lot of people speak english in zimbabwe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a brit colony. Everyone speaks most. I mean again, because the level of education is so high. I'd say about 80%, 90% of people speak English. Yep, oh fantastic. Despite the crazy economic challenges they've faced in the last 10, 20 years, it's still a very vibrant country. It just needs some good governance.
Speaker 1:And how big is that town, Victoria Falls?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's tiny. I mean, I don't know, it's probably 30,000, not even oh it's small Okay.
Speaker 2:I like it because it's known as the adrenaline capital in Africa, so you can leap and jump and raft and do whatever you want in crazy ways that you would never be allowed anywhere else. Oh right, so it's beautiful. It's along the Zambezi river, obviously, the falls are there and it's just. It's just the most beautiful area and town. And considering I'm in tourism, I figured you know I could actually get a job there somewhere, but you know I wouldn't be paid, obviously and is there a safari near there?
Speaker 1:so I say that, oh yeah, destination, can I also do? It's kind?
Speaker 2:of cool that way. Yep, it's. It's not a lot of. It is protected around the outside the town. I mean people. There are elephants in town occasionally as well, but um, yeah, you get that. You build a nice wall around your garden and it just gets smashed if you put some fruiting mango trees or something in there. Yeah, it's nice, it's so. You've got a lot of wildlife and I mean people's. You know you can get like warthogs on your lawns and things as well. It's fun, but it's it's a very kind of international community as well. I I just enjoyed it because I always have an amazing time when I'm there and it's just one of those secret dreams. But it's very, it's very small. It's very small town for most people. I would say from American standpoint, you know, I'd say you'd probably have a much nicer time in Cape Town or somewhere more cosmopolitan where there's art galleries and, you know, lovely restaurants and stuff. That's not my thing.
Speaker 1:I'd rather go where you're talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that sounds more fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you know the difficult thing about Africa and moving there is obviously, you know, unemployment is a huge thing, that there is an enormous amount of educated people who cannot get jobs right. So you know, to go there as an expat or a foreigner to you don't want to take someone's job. So whatever you want to do is either be self-employed, I guess, or find something where you would maybe help local people get more employment. But you know you can't just go there just like as a mom. We can't come to the States and so I'm going to live here and work here. It's, you know, you'd have to figure it out on the inside somehow. Same with South Africa. I do think that South Africa has got, you know, a visa system in place for people who've improved that they could work, you know, remotely, or they're employed, and obviously then you're spending your money, you know, in the local economy and helping that along, which is great yeah yeah yeah, so you're a travel, you're, you put together safaris, you do tourism.
Speaker 1:Well, what? What's your job? What do you do?
Speaker 2:oh so I'm, I'm, um, I'm a sales manager at my company, but we're very small, it's all women, there's just five of us. It's been around for about 27 years and I and we basically create custom safari itineraries, and so there's just three of us that sell. All of us have had a lot of experience or we're from Africa or we've lived there or we've had like decades of experience selling Africa. So we just put together individual itineraries for anyone, so you can come as a couple or a single person or if you've got a family of eight or 10, you know, we start by asking your budget where you want to go.
Speaker 2:Usually we kind of distinguish between East and Southern Africa because it's quite different and the United States and Alaska can fit into Africa almost four times, right?
Speaker 2:So it's massive and there's 54 countries and they're all vastly different and even within a country, say like Uganda, there's like 62 languages and way more tribes, and you know each country has its own unique histories and cultures and languages and obviously you know sites for tourists to see and there's a lot of countries that tourists don't go to and we wouldn't sell just because it's not safe or it's a little bit unbalanced or unstable or there's just not the infrastructure.
Speaker 2:You know most americans only have two weeks vacation, tops, you know, to spend, unless you're tired and maybe have a little more, which is perfect for a safari. That's enough, you know it's. It's a great trip for anyone to be away that long. So yeah, so we, we start out, just we. You know we don't, we're not a wholesaler, we don't do group travel, we don't have set itineraries at all, so we just build it from when you call us and you can take or leave it, and you can change it up, and you can add things or take away things, and we kind of. So we often have a relationship with our clients that lasts about a year. Generally, most people book about a year in advance.
Speaker 1:And we just help them.
Speaker 2:You know, we help them through the planning stages. We set up the itinerary and we just make sure that they're super prepared, you know, before they go. And they've got, obviously they've got support all the way through the on the ground as well.
Speaker 1:So we work.
Speaker 2:It's called African portfolio.
Speaker 1:Okay, it's almost 30 years old.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, we've been through all of it, we been through 9-11 and ebola and now covid.
Speaker 1:So we're still here, yeah. So, um, what I was thinking, you know, because I think I'm going to safari, I always think you're in a jeep, you're going through and you have these guys that tell you like where to go, when, but since they're all custom, so say, like I want to take my mom, who, yep, doesn't not super mobile, like the jeep would be good for her.
Speaker 1:But then someone like kristin, who's super adventurous and wants to hike 10 miles like yeah, you have some that are like much more athletic versus some are just more like that's a really good question and that's one of the reasons I really do.
Speaker 2:I mean, apart from the fact that I'm basically doing this so I can provide employment right in In Africa, like it's, I find tourism is a it's a really good industry, it's a clean industry, it's amazing for conservation. Obviously, most of the people on safari you know tend to go because they love animals or they're interested in wildlife, but then they come back often with better memories of the people and they're more touched by the people they meet. In the end it's kind of interesting, but anyway. So, yeah, a safari is great. So what I would do is I'd say, okay, well then I'll rule out certain areas where the safari is really, because it's inside a national park and there are more rules where you can't really leave your vehicle. Obviously you're surrounded by wild animals and you have to know.
Speaker 2:But there are certain areas all over East and Southern Africa where they're what they call private concessions or private areas. And in Kenya and East Africa they've borrowed the land for the Maasai and they pay the Maasai rent. But because it's more private, it's not in a national park that's gazetted by the government You're allowed to go off road, you're allowed to walk. You're allowed to do a lot more things because they kind of have set the rules, unlike a national park. So there are areas in Kenya specifically, there's some in Tanzania, not too many. So then I would say okay, if you want to do that, let's mix it up and we'll put you in these areas.
Speaker 2:In Botswana, south Africa they all have them Zimbabwe too, where there's a combination of walking and vehicles and you can go on night drives and you can go, like, if you want, to picnic along a river for breakfast and get out of your vehicle, and that's allowed in certain areas. So we get the hang of like all right, you've got an eight-year-old, you've got a 50-year-old and you've got a 12-year-old, and they all have different wants or needs. But safari is awesome because you're looking at these animals from really close and you're learning, you're all learning about them and it's just it's it's fascinating and it's educational. And it's really exciting because you are always going to come up with a brush where you're like oh my god, my life is about to be in serious danger. Where the eight year old might be pretty cool about that, because they're seeing a lot more and you know your 12 year old might be oblivious, but you're like, oh god, but yeah so there's different areas.
Speaker 2:that's exactly so. That's why we kind of first start off with a chat with somebody who are you and what do you want and what do you dream about? Like, have you seen out of africa? Is that what you want? You want acacias and open serengeti and you want the romance and intent. Then you're like, okay, that's kind of east africa and we can do that in botswana too, but you know, or do you want to like, just be, you know, have this amazing, inspiring experience, but you want to come back to your lodge and eat like the most fabulous, incredibly creative gourmet dinner every night and you know, and and talk to conservationists while you have this dinner, right. So then you're like, all right, you could do that in South Africa or you can do that here or wherever you know. So it depends on what, what you're dreaming about and what your interests are and, of course, what your budget is Right, and so we try and match all of that.
Speaker 1:And does your company have a YouTube channel to like? Because I mean that could just be so much time for you, but do you like, do you can people?
Speaker 2:do some research before they start talking with you. Yeah, so yeah, we've, we've got a blog. That's really. I mean, I've gosh, I've been writing this blog since 2009 or 2008 for this company, so I've been writing a lot. I used to do a lot of travel writing, so I started off with African Portfolio in 2007, 2008. And I did all their social media at the time, which was basically blogging, right, and a little bit of Facebook, but that wasn't huge yet. And now, yeah, we've actually just got a YouTube channel, but it's really more. We're starting to get videos of our sample itineraries because we custom every itinerary. We obviously we have sample itineraries on our website so you can go there and get an idea of, you know, the cost involved, right, because we have a range of pricing from low season to high season and what the activities are. And we've got these little videos too. But you know we're a smaller company, so it's really it's hard to you know. We actually have never done a podcast or anything either.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and now, I know we got one now.
Speaker 1:What's low and high?
Speaker 2:season.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good question. So that differs also per country, of course, is nothing, because it's really related to the weather and it's related to safari, right? So in the, in the high season, it would be when it's cooler and drier generally, and dry is the key thing because when it's wet the animals can spread out because there's water sources all over, so there's no need to congregate near water holes or rivers or you know some permanent water supply, and so that tends to be the high season, tends to be between June and September in almost all safari areas actually. So that could be from South Africa to 4000 miles up to Kenya. You know that's a similar dry time of year.
Speaker 2:And then you've got a great migration, which is this meandering circle of life that happens with like a million wildebeest and zebra in East Africa and they go from Tanzania to Kenya. But it's a full circle. So the high season that most people think of there is when they see these river crossings of thousands of wildebeest and they're getting attacked by crocodiles, and you know that happens between July and September in Tanzania and Kenya and in certain in the Serengeti and the Mara. But there are other little mini migrations in Botswana there's like bat migrations in Zambia that are really fascinating. There's, like sardine migrations on the southern coast of South Africa, so it depends on what animals you want to see. There's whales and sharks in South Africa that are really amazing, even from the land in October, from between July and October.
Speaker 2:So the low season tends to be the warmer, wet summers, but then that's the opposite in Cape Town. So you can you know, if you go in Christmas your wildlife viewing isn't that quite as good, but Cape Town is spectacular because that's the dry summer. They're the only people that have a dry summer in Africa. Almost everyone else tends to have wet in east and southern Africa, where the animals are and then gorilla tracking, there is no season, but they're always in this little rainforest, right, and it's always wet, so right and I want to talk about that, but I was just looking at your website, so just again, it's Africanportfoliocom.
Speaker 1:Right, okay?
Speaker 2:It's on safaricom yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then I oh the web. The URL is on safaricom, that's right. And then I see experiences. This is great. You have adventure safaris, cultural safaris, family safaris, romantic safaris safaris, romantic safaris safaris and beach top shelf safaris.
Speaker 2:okay, yes, you're trying to come up with something else because I like it. You do kind of higher end and the only reason that higher I used to be very much because I was. I started off as a real backpacker, right. So I was always like, well, you know, plunge pool in the bush, like why would you want that? You know?
Speaker 2:But actually I remember talking to some and beyond and singita, they're like the very luxury brands right, a and k, like these, um, and they, they did convince me that environmentally your footprint, you know, if you're spending people will spend 20, 40 000 right on a safari. You can, you can get way up there if you want. But actually, you know, it's true, these camps have like just six people and even if you have a plunge pool, like the amount that goes to conservation for a $3,000 per person bed night is massive, right, I mean, there's no amount of champagne you can drink to make up for that. So actually, environmentally, your footprint is less damaging than if you've got a group of 18 to 25 overlanders in a truck that are camping and don't have a dollar to give to the local folks or you know, to have somebody local cook, you know.
Speaker 2:So it's, you know there's that thing of over tourism. You know that you hear bandied about recently and and it's true and and you know COVID has made everyone kind of step back a little bit. I know people in Venice and all over the world are like gosh. You know it would be quite nice not to have a million cruise people coming in just for the day and, you know, maybe not spending a lot, but they're all here and so the safari is a little bit similar and you've got a very fine balance between the conservation that you're trying to do which is why nearly everyone is in the industry is because they are out and out devout conservationists and they're trying by all means to protect these animals from encroachment from local people farming and needing to eat and needing the land and yeah, so are you saying some of the money of the safari goes to this conservation?
Speaker 2:I'd say 90% of anyone who's in this industry. All of it goes back to conservation and local jobs, everyone. That is basically why anyone is doing it. Yeah, there's not a lot of people there to actually make money. Everything goes back to charity or whatever. It's not a nice word, but, yes, it all goes to conservation.
Speaker 1:Meaning that when they go, they have to spend the money to buy and experience all the things, and they're spending the money doing that.
Speaker 2:Is that how it goes back? Well, whoever who, if you're starting up a safari lodge or a camp anywhere in Kenya or Tanzania or South Africa or Botswana, it's a labor of love. You know it's really is and and you know you can go upscale and luxury, but but everyone is doing it in order to protect the wildlife around them and create jobs and the job creation. I think there's over a billion jobs in the tourism industry in Africa. It's an enormous money and income generator and in these areas where the safaris happen, it's usually quite close to marginalized communities anyway and that means, like in Botswana, it's communities that are traditional, culturally traditional, um, and they don't always have the means or you know to, to have jobs or build schools, and it's not even part of their traditional lifestyle if they're nomadic originally, like the Maasai or the Samburu in Kenya. So it's a way for people who live around these areas to have a chance to get some jobs and money and get their kids educated, because that's kind of what everyone wants in their life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's awesome and it's really a way to. Otherwise, you know you'd have every country, would be like the US or Europe. You wouldn't have a single bit of wildlife anyway, because farmers need the land right, everyone needs to grow food and to to support their families or whatever. And all miners come in. You know there's there's valuable stuff, uranium and oil and gas and everything. So these safari companies, they basically exist as their conservation is their main goal always when you say I was gonna mention or ask more about that, what?
Speaker 1:is that it sounds like it's a certain people or yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So the Maasai, you know, when you're seeing pictures of, you know Kenya, and you see these beautiful tall people with their long earrings and you know they're wearing these red check blankets and things like that, so that that it's a, it's a nomadic. They're nomadic pastoralists, so they have cattle. Cattle is kind of their wealth and their, you know, the more cattle you have cows, goats, sheep the wealthier you are and they, you know, traditionally they would actually just drink the blood and milk their cows and that was their entire diet. Nowadays, most of these African governments have tended to look down on any of these nomadic pastoralists or tribes, and same as the Bushmen, I mean, it's the same as Native Americans in the US, right? So any hunter, gatherer or any tribal peoples that do not consider land, wealth or property or to state your ground is looked down upon. And that's the same, I'd argue, all over the world, pretty much same, I'd argue, all over the world, pretty much so.
Speaker 2:Pastoralists and hunter-gatherers and those types of folks have always been somewhat marginalized, right, because of their idea of what is valuable, and so they're often marginalized that they don't have the schooling, they don't have the you know, the ability, because you know, if you're a Maasai, you know you want your kids to be raised and walk with the cows and the cattle and keep them safe. That's kind of the traditional lifestyle. But a lot of the safari areas are in the areas that the Maasai are, because it was not, maybe, great land for farming and so it was left fallow and that's where the you know that's why the wildlife survived there, because it wasn't. You know, the Maasai do hunt lion, or they did traditionally. To become a man you had to kill a lion but you know, comparatively it was nothing compared to, you know, the white folks going out to hunt them it made the same impact.
Speaker 2:Quite right so, but anyway. So these safari that, especially in Kenya and around the Maasai Mara, which is probably the most famous national park there, which is where the migration happens and it's an amazing wildlife park, I mean, it's beautiful and where's that In.
Speaker 2:Kenya, yep Got it and so around there a lot of you know about 25, 30 years ago, a group of conservationists said you know well, we're going to rent this land off the Maasai and in a case of drought they're allowed to bring their cattle back on that land to graze and to get drink. But other than that, they agreed with the Maasai that the Maasai wouldn't graze their cattle in these areas. They'd let it go back to its natural state of the bush and the animals would come back. So they created all these great tracts of land around this specific national park as a border for coaches and as a way of extending these national park boundaries in a natural way where the Maasai who lived there gained, because they get a regular income from the rent on that land. And the way the conservationists decided was like, rather than have mini buses or buses filled with people because Kenya was getting quite overcrowded with with tourism at that, you know, in the sixties, seventies it was people were throwing their trash out the window and like really not caring. It was like a zoo for them, right? So they built these, they got this situation in hand and they they leased this land off the Maasai.
Speaker 2:They talked to the headman and it was very kind of agreeable terms, and they built these more luxury camps, tented camps, and they decided to limit the amount of people.
Speaker 2:Specifically, nobody was allowed to drive their own car and so when you get to these camps you go with a vehicle and the guide of the camp and they limited where they could drive, but they didn't limit the fact they could go off road and you could drive at night, which is why there's such great places now to go on safari. So it's more expensive. Generally it's a higher price tag for the tourists to come, but you've got way lower tourist numbers. You can go walking, you can go off road, you can drive at night, which just makes it more interesting. The guys that they employ are much better qualified because you're paying a higher price. So they also respect and tell you all the rules about what you can't, what you can do. They're not going to drive right up to animals to stress and harass them, because the whole point is to have a bigger areas that are protected for these animals to thrive.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask about the night drive. I had a highlight on that too.
Speaker 2:Okay, they're fun. You know, the whole thing is really exciting and at night it's nice because you get a chance to see the nocturnal animals. So you know that's, you've got more chance of seeing a leopard hunt, for example, because they they tend to be nocturnal, and you've got more chance of seeing like little bush babies there's lots of you know bat if foxes. There's lots of species that happen to go out and about at night. The hippos come out the water and go grazing, but you know you're there with a spotlight. So when you're, you know, and the reason again why I quite like the luxury end which I never thought I did, but I do is because your guides are so much better and they're better qualified and I think I said this before once about you know, if you're going on safari, the guiding is crucial because you're with a guide for eight, nine hours a day and they can see and spot things that you can't even see through your binoculars and they can read the calls of the animals. And if you hear a baboon and a certain alarm call of a baboon and you also hear certain birds and you look at the giraffe and you see which way they're glancing, they're like oh, there's a lion or there's a predator out there in that direction, and so that you know and they can look at the tracks, and so you can, they can read the bush like you would read, you know, a book, right, and so that's where you find the animals, because you know animals are, they're in camouflage and and they do not, you know they're in hiding, basically most so.
Speaker 2:So a night drive is you tend to at these areas, where these are private conservancies that I was kind of describing a little bit. You'll tend to go out in the afternoon on a game drive and if you're in a private area, they always stop for a sundown. It's a big thing. Everyone drinks quite a bit in these places. It's a bit like anywhere in the suburban hemisphere. You know it's hot and you know lunchtime drinking is always encouraged and so is what they call a sundowner. So every day at about five o'clock you stop and you have a glass of wine, a gin and tonic somewhere.
Speaker 2:So they stop at a beautiful scenic spot, you watch the sun go down, you have a gin and tonic, and then on your way back to camp it'll be pitch dark. The sun goes down in Africa and mostly, and it's just pitch black by 6.30. And mostly, and it's just pitch black by 6.30. So as you're traveling back to camp, you know the next hour, hour and a half, however far you've gone out, your tracker or your guide will have a spotlight on the car and he'll shine it in the bush. So you're not going to see as much as obviously during the day, when they can literally see hundreds of feet or they can hear the alarm calls or whatever They've got other tracks to follow so at, or whatever they've got other tracks to follow, so at night it's a bit of a crapshoot as to how much you can see.
Speaker 2:But it's very cool because you know you can be surrounded by elephant and they are absolutely enormous. Most zoos have indian elephants, so you just african elephants are twice the size of any indian elephant and they're completely silent. That means you can hear them munch and crunch and throw down a tree or whatever, but apart from that, their footprint and everything, the way their feet are and the way their feet fall, it's like it spreads out like a jello every time they take a step like. So it's really really cool because you can sit there in the pitch dark and obviously you're hearing you know crickets and whatever everything calling and hyenas. You always hear hyenas somewhere, which is a bit eerie, yeah when you said alarm calls.
Speaker 1:What's that?
Speaker 2:well every animal. When they see danger um, they call to warn their own troops.
Speaker 2:So so that you know that the bane of every predator's existence are baboons and velvet monkeys, because they're up in the trees and they will just make the. You know, right, you can watch a lion, so it's so exciting, right. So you're on a vehicle and the guy's like, okay, this lion sometimes they'll often know the prides around there and they might have seen like a kill three days ago, so they know she's going to be hungry and they might know she's got cubs. And the lionesses are the ones that hunt most most often, right? So they'll be like, okay, this lioness.
Speaker 2:It's like 5, 30 pm they start to stretch out, they start to nuzzle each other and they're like, all right, she's probably going to go hunting. And so then you start to follow her, you know, and she's just starting to pray and there's like maybe an impala that's downwind and you're like I don't think they've seen her. And you know it's very exciting, right, all of it. And you're just sitting in the vehicle trying to, and then a troop of baboons or velvet monkeys will just raise holy hell. And, of course, the impala and everything she's been stalking and you've been following for like 45 minutes.
Speaker 2:Just run, right, they don't, they're gone because the because the monkeys are, yeah, they're warning oh my gosh for each other, but every animal could read every other animal signals and they use that right, so wow that's incredible, nothing that you, I mean you know being here in california.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I, I uh, yeah, well, I mean, I mean you know being here in.
Speaker 2:California. I mean I, I, yeah, well, I mean it. It all happens, you know, in Colorado and California too, with bears, and you know mountain lion and stuff, but it's just we don't see it and you don't have a guide. You know, that's what's so lovely to go and spend a little bit more money If you're on a safari, because to know not only what the animals and how they behave, but the termites and the insects, and incredible, yeah, every circle of life is intertwined with others, and even the birds and what they you know, it's fantastic. Yeah, wow, I have chills, which is why it's so fun if you've got a 12 year old and an 80 year old and a 50 year old all in one vehicle.
Speaker 2:You know just, everyone is fascinated, exciting, year old all in one vehicle. You know just, everyone is fascinated and exciting. And then you can jump off and the guy can show. You know your kid, all the. You know my kids have done like you know. All they wanted was to check out the poop of everything and where it came from and what did they eat. And then you've got a whole circle of like what these dung beetles and how they roll the poops, and there's like 400 different types dung beetle, and each one lays their eggs in the poop or does something else, and it's. You could look at one insect and if you've got a good guide, they could fascinate you for days with just that one insect you know, and that's what's so awesome about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow.
Speaker 1:And is there a lot? Is there any time where you go on a safari and you don't see anything and there's no action?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, it's a little bit of a crapshoot. And that's where, again, if you have a decent guide, you could still have the most amazing outing, because all you've done is got out the vehicle and look at, like you know, a weaver bird nest right, that's brand new and like that's not something you came out to see, because you're like, yeah, I really want to see a rhino, I really want to see a leopard. Now, you know, but if you just have the patience, which is kind of what you learn after a few days, you patience which is kind of what you learn after a few days, you know that that things will come and things are just as exciting. Honestly, again, if you have the good staff around you to show you it, it's.
Speaker 2:I've come off a game drive and not seen a single large animal, but been way more interested than sitting there and watching lions, because lions sleep for 23 hours a day. I just sit in there watching them sleep and they kind of smell on those flies and you're like, you know, yeah, I would rather learn about all the other stuff that I'm missing, because everyone wants to see the lion. So, yeah, but so there are areas, you know, if you're a little unlucky if it's really windy and no animal likes wind. If it's pouring with rain, obviously that can happen sometimes, but you know you don't have days and days of rain. It will come. But yeah, you can be unlucky and that's part of safari. You know you've got to always manage your expectations. There are some parks, I'd say, especially in south africa, in the kruger area, where you are likely to see the big five pretty much after a day or two and what locations are those that's in the kruger area, sabi sands area.
Speaker 2:These are these private conservancies which we tend to use um around the kruger national park, which is in the northern South Africa.
Speaker 1:And how do you spell?
Speaker 2:Kruger, kruger, so K-R-U-G-E-R that's the name of the national park. It's one of Africa's oldest national parks, but it's again. In this case they weren't Maasai, but they were like a lot of farmers, mostly white, afana farmers, in these farming, these areas around the Kruger.
Speaker 2:And over time over the last 20, 30 years. It is very dry out there and it's very harsh to farm. It's a really tough life. And so they've also ended up getting down all the fences from the National Park and creating these great, amazing private conservancies all around the park. So it's just extended the size of the park. It's almost double the park in size. All these are privately owned concessions but they've agreed to not have any fences and they are thriving as far as wildlife goes and, of course, for way more dog creation, for people around there as well.
Speaker 2:So, and it's an amazing safari experience there really is. You, south africa is not as open savannah, you know. So if you're really thinking of these massive, wide open plains, that's more East Africa. South Africa is a little bit more bushy, a little bit more hilly, but you, the leopard and the animals are so habituated. They've done an amazing job of keeping, poaching down. It's a really tightly run, you know, conservation effort there. So that means the animals are super relaxed, so you can almost drive up to them and they're not moving.
Speaker 2:They're not going to, you know, change their habits or what they're doing because you're in a vehicle at all, and that's the same with you know, parts of tansy and kenya too was that east or south that you were saying that they're like, they're kind of laying around?
Speaker 1:um, that would be. That's the same with you know, parts of Tanzania and Kenya too. Was that East or South that you were saying that they're like, they're kind of laying around?
Speaker 2:That would be. That's in South Africa. So the country of South Africa, yeah, and that's Northern South Africa is the Kruger area, greater Kruger National Park. I mean it's really famous. It's like you know people don't like you will see other vehicles. They try and limit it to like three vehicles per really big sighting, you know.
Speaker 2:So if there's a leopard eating, like some, you know, buck up a tree or whatever, you're going to have at least two or three vehicles at some point because they tend to use radios. So the guides and in that way that's a guarantee Safari you'll see basically everything you've come to see because they also radio to one another. You know when one guide is that you, you know you go off in different directions from camp. But if one guide is like all right, there's a mom with three cubs and they're playing, well, everybody wants to see that, right, so they'll stay there for a while and then they'll radio in their, their, you know fellow people and they'll slowly come.
Speaker 2:So so for some you know safari. So for some safari enthusiasts that's like they hate that, they don't want radios. They hate that they don't want radios, they don't want it to be predictable because they're like that's not great. But for most of us mortals it's a really pretty amazing experience because it's still real, the things are still killing things and it's you know. Nothing has been tampered with, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I'm just enthralled with everything you're saying.
Speaker 2:Well and also.
Speaker 1:I want to just I know it's funny Most of our podcasts also talk about, like you know, activities that people do on a day-to-day basis and like the foods that they eat, and you know, and things like that, and I, I, I want to cover some of that because I go on and on about the story.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting. Just curious, in backpacking I I'm a very avid outdoor backpacker as well, and just curious. I mean, I haven't done very much but I do it every year. But what is there to do there and what do people typically do? Or is there what kind of outdoor sports and things and different?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, so you know, I would say, like in East Africa, you know, I mean just because it's such a huge continent, right. So I mean you've got Morocco in the north and that's, you know, that's just. You know you could go out in really trek and backpack. I'd say if you're, you know, an American coming in, I would still stick with South Africa. It's a very it's probably the most modernized country in sub-saharan Africa, so they're a lovely little better breakfast to stay.
Speaker 2:You can arrange, you know, to get trail maps and guides and, if you need them or not, and you can do a lot of self-driving there too. They have this beautiful mountain range called the Drakensberg in KwaZulu-Natal, which is in the southern part of the country. Incredible beautiful hikes, waterfalls, all of that, in fact most of South Africa. There's also these great hikes you can do. There's one called the Otter Trail which is along the coast. You can get a car called the. There's one called the otter trail which is along the coast. You could get a car. You. You walk maybe 10, 12 miles a day all along this crazy beautiful coast you know with, because anyway that the coast is pretty wild in south africa.
Speaker 2:I think that they they reckon that tolkien got his. He lived there as a young man and he got his ideas a lord of the rings and the whole landscape from south africa not new zealand, but anyway. So there's a coast but they're also called the wild coast, but anyhow. So you've got these lovely bed and breakfast places along and they will take your pack for you and you can walk with the day pack and you could do that for five days or 10 days. Even they fill up. South africans are real outdoor people. It's a bit like australians or whatever. So they you know that's fills up quickly. But yeah, you can hike and bike almost everywhere, like the Winelands and just North of Cape town it's a bit like Sonoma or Napa, but maybe from those places like 30, 40 years ago where it's still, you know, a bit smaller but incredible wine, incredible like Michelin style of restaurants everywhere and you can cycle everywhere or hike there too, beautiful mountain ranges as well um, you wouldn't have to worry about animals or certain areas they're like.
Speaker 1:No, you don't have to worry about no nowhere around there.
Speaker 2:No, no, um, like walking in the national park. So, where there's a lot of animals, you need you need armed guards. You can't just walk there. It's all cycle or hike. But around there, where it's not national park or it's not a wildlife area, but you might. You know, leopards are really shy, they're never going to attack you, but it's a bit like mountain lions. You don't really worry about a mountain lion so much. Yeah, when you you know and you they'll, they'll run away.
Speaker 1:You know they usually, unless there's something wrong with them but let me just, let me just back up for a sec. Did you say, in order to go through walking through a national park, you have to have an armed guard? Uh, pretty much for safety, because you may die yeah, well, yeah, so now.
Speaker 2:So they do have the walking safari is is is fairly stressful. I've done quite a few of them but actually zambia is the best place zambia and zimbabwe, but I say zambia still tops the list of the best walking safari experience. And they have it set up there that you can walk in between different camps so there's a really cool like week or 10 day long activity where you stay at these nice little tented camps you can do game drives like. So you'll be in a vehicle in the afternoons, you know, and you see a bit more in a vehicle because animals tend to run away from you or a bit more worried about you when you're on foot because of just poaching through.
Speaker 2:You know, through age times you know like somebody on foot is generally more and more you know that they that's more dangerous than they can smell you and they like vehicles. They've become used to in these parks because they've been established a long time. So they ignore a vehicle. They see it as a, as a weird object. So you know, but you can never get out of a vehicle suddenly, that's. You can see it, the in the animal's look and everything. The minute somebody might step up or walk or do something different, even in the vehicle, but generally the vehicle they see it as one harmless being that they can just ignore. But if you're on foot you have to always go with an armed guard in front and generally an armed guard behind you and you walk in single file usually and you see what you find it's. It's thrilling, to say the least.
Speaker 1:It's not comfortable really, but it's really cool and then they're backpacking there then, because it seems like you probably wouldn't backpack?
Speaker 2:no, it's, it's generally. You know it's also quite hot and you don't want to have a backpacking because you do. You know if there is danger is, you know if there's, you never know what you'll find, because the animals move all the time and you know, even elephants in general can be pretty chilled out. But if the if you're walking in a bushy area and an elephant can smell you but they can't see you, they get in a fit they don't like it and they will come and just charge it. That's just what they do because they can't see you. And so then, if you don't have time to get out in the open so they can't see you, and so then, if you don't have time to get out in the open so they can see you, smell you, figure you out, they'll just charge you and you can't possibly have a backpack on because you just need to go up a tree or something you need to like, figure out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I was curious also. So you said you know, if you could, you'd go and live there for a couple of years. What would you do if you went back, whether it be Victoria Falls or somewhere else?
Speaker 2:Well, what would you do? I think I'd like I'd like to run a lodge or a safari camp or do something like like be an interim manager. So I just so things would be laid out a little bit because I wouldn't really know what I was doing but I would like to do that. I would just like to host, I'd like to host, I'd like to host people, um, you know, either a camp or a lodge there, because I just I love, you know, the part of the joy for me of traveling is just meeting people from all over the world and, you know, just sharing your love of travel or cultures, and you know that that I think would be great, yeah and it seems like it's pretty safe to travel there, aside from, of course, oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Africa is such a weird reputation. It's totally ungrounded and unfounded, really, honestly. I mean, of course you've got hot spots everywhere, right, and and stuff can happen and you can be unlucky, but in general anywhere in east or southern africa like any safari destination that we would sell and I've traveled way beyond all over these countries too it's really quite safe. You know, as long as you are friendly and you're not, you know, showing your bling bling and you're not aggressive and you're just respectful, you're going to be good.
Speaker 1:What's the diet of people typically? That that that live there, that travel there. What kind of foods?
Speaker 2:As a traveler. You know, as a traveler it's a little bit disappointing, I'd say in a sense, because a lot of these countries were british colonies so you've got like the british diet of food. So you know, if you're you know, in general in east and southern africa if you're going like a lower bed and breakfast rate or something, you'll attend you as a tourist, you will tend to eat British foods, local people in most. I mean, it's such a massive continent. Again, it's completely different to what people eat in Tunisia, morocco, to what they eat in Egypt, to what they eat in Ghana or anywhere. So you know, west African cuisine is delicious, it's, you know, a lot of rice meat mixtures and fufu. You know a lot of rice meat um mixtures and fufu.
Speaker 2:But most countries will have some kind of form of maize porridge or maize that looks like a mashed potato but it's. To me it's a bit less tasty, but all different forms of that summer can be a bit more liquidy porridge. Summer's really super stodgy. And then in Ghana they have this very airy, light kind of fufu. That's really difficult to make and you've to eat it right away and it's delicious, but so, and generally you would dip that into if meat, if you're lucky right and you can afford it, otherwise it's gonna be like greens and veggies.
Speaker 2:So it's a bit, you know, if you think of, I'd say, african-american like traditional, you know southern cuisine like a lot of collard, greens and things like that, and then and then some spice. You know again, you know you've probably eaten Ethiopian food and Ethiopia is like a whole different country, all to itself, with a completely unique culture, um as well, and so their food is completely different as to what you'd eat in Kenya, which is, you know, next door, um, where it's more a rural, agricultural, just different, different lifestyle, different meats. And you know the Maasai will eat a lot of meat because they never grew anything. You know they, they, they were cattle and they moved around, so they tend to be more meat heavy. And but these days you know everyone's mixing and matching because you know a lot more settled and modern life has impinged on everyone.
Speaker 1:So but a lot of the night you do eat a lot of indian food.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of india, a lot of asian people settled in east and southern africa. They were brought in. Just like in the caribbean as well, right like in trinidad, there's a lot of indian, there's a big asian. You know indian south asian population, as it were. So there's a lot of like in in some parts of south africa. There's a lot of indian food in cape town. There's cape malay food that they brought in a lot of Indian food in Cape Town. There's Cape Malay food that they brought in a lot of Cape Malays to also work as cuny laborers. You know, in times past, so from three, four hundred years ago. So all those cuisines have been blended in. Cape Town is like a gourmet capital on the planet. They have everything. They're incredible. You know sushi and French and mediterranean and on all that, yeah, when fruits and vegetables do they have?
Speaker 2:everywhere. Yeah, it's, it's like a, yeah, it's like a. You know it's tropical, right, so they grow, you grow everything. So there's low. You know it's in season, which is nice, right, because it tastes much better. So, yeah, um, citrus is grown all over south africa, for example. They export it everywhere. Zimbabwe has got, you know, an abundance of citrus, avocados, everything, yep, fruit, veggies, and on safari is lovely, because actually my, my youngest kid is very, was very severely allergic to many foods and I couldn't take him to like a marriott down the road, but I could always take him to these on safari because every camp has its own tiny kitchen and they go everything from scratch and everything is basically organic and delicious and it's, yeah, it's great, the food is great on safari generally amazing lots of salads, lots of fresh stuff, and always got excellent South African wine, which is just fun, yeah wow, and then I did want to touch also one last thing.
Speaker 1:You said you know you did um your master's, I think, in third world. Um, yeah, and I was curious also just in terms of demographics and and um the people as well, and I'm assuming maybe that's where it stemmed from, or what is it like um South Africa made out of in terms of the people? I'm assuming it? Is it fairly poor, is it not?
Speaker 2:like in terms of, um, the country of South Africa. Um, so South Africa yeah, it's South Africa, I would say is probably considered a second world country. I would say on the level of, well, you've got, you've got a very small and mostly white, still um rich population because they still own most of the land. They still have to. You know apart height, you know the educated are still generally white. There is just the history of the country. It's a totally unique history. South Africa is a real anomaly for the rest of Africa, but most people know it. But you know they also have a tremendous amount of gold and diamonds and you know things that just made them richer than other countries as well. But you know they had a part hike for so many years and you know every police state tends to be stable economically and do quite well. So they always did at least a certain population. So I would say it's probably you've.
Speaker 2:You can see tremendous poverty in South Africa even when're going from the airport in Cape Town to, you know, your nice hotel in town. It's in this form of townships because under apartheid they segregated everyone right, so the whites could live in all the nice areas with sea views and mountain views, and you know they have lovely lawns and swimming pools, and and every black person was forced to live in these townships which are basically, um, you know, like a ghetto type situation where you just see, you know single structures, corrugated metal roofs, you know one water point for 600 people or whatever that, so that, and that still exists very much, um, but it's not the law anymore. So, so obviously, you know, in that way, if you are a wealthy person, it doesn't matter about the color of skin, that you can now at least buy a house wherever you want in town if you want. But because of this, you know, there is a huge gap between the poor and the rich, just like in South America, I'd say so. It's probably a bit similar to that, you know, in Argentina or Chile, right where you can have an amazing time in the wineries and the mountains, but you know, you're still out in the outskirts of these cities. There's there's a huge amount of poverty, um, and that's similar to south africa, I'd say so. I'd say south africa is.
Speaker 2:You know, you can feel a little bit of that tension elsewhere, but you, you can also be in a bubble there, but there's also really great. I mean I've always, every time I go, I will always do some kind of a township tour or meet. We support a charity called Utando and they do amazing work and Cape town townships and all over, and it's wonderful because you go and you meet. You know, you can meet like grannies who were like at an old people's home and you, you know they, you interact and you can support their projects and you can go to a creche or a nursery or they do these incredible like urban gardens. There's so many good projects and there's so much good stuff going on. You you have to look for it a little bit, but I think it's worth that if you go to do that side of it too and not just enjoy the wineries and the sharks and the penguins and all the other amazing stuff that Cape Town has to offer, you know so did you say penguins?
Speaker 2:yeah, there's penguins in Cape Town. It's pretty cool little African penguins. I know they're so sweet and and if you go, but if you go in there summer they're all bedraggled because they lose all their feathers, like hot for them, so they look cool. But in the, in the dry winter months, yeah, yeah, so there's penguins yeah, it's really it's an amazing place.
Speaker 2:I mean it really is, you know so it's got it's an amazing place. I mean it really is, you know so it's got its issues, but that's mostly from the politics that was practiced, you know continues to unfortunately be the bane of most South African. Black, white colored Malay. Wherever you come from in South Africa, you're similar to many countries. You're beating your head against the wall about politicians and their corrupt ways.
Speaker 1:So yeah, oh, that's so amazing.
Speaker 2:Oh my, my gosh, I could talk to you forever.
Speaker 1:There's well and also just your life in general, of what you've done and um just thank you for sharing, just like how you grew up and how, how cool that is that you know, I lived in the same place in Southern California and um didn't travel as much and how interesting to be in boarding school and traveling and experiencing that and just everything yeah it was very, very, I feel, extremely fortunate.
Speaker 2:Just it just leaves you a little bit restless, but that's about the only thing.
Speaker 1:Like you got to go somewhere else, kind of thing, yeah.
Speaker 2:Every, every every few months or so, yeah. I feel that way still to yeah now even where, in southern California, are you Kristen? Well, I grew up in southern California, in Redondo Beach.
Speaker 1:It's um 30 minutes south of LA. I went to college also down there in Riverside. It's kind of in inland and then, I moved up to northern California, so I'm about 40, 45 minutes, um kind of east of San Francisco, yeah, and actually Carol and I that's where we met was up here when you were in 20s yeah, yeah yeah, we were well in wind a little bit and we met and lived in the same apartment complex, and then we ended up working at the same company in two different locations and then, yeah, we lived together, shared.
Speaker 1:Every Wednesday night we do rotate dinners with three other people oh, it's so nice super fun. And then 20 years went by and we got back together and then, long story short, started this podcast. Yeah, it's so nice, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I mean, that's the one nice thing with COVID right. It just made you kind of get out and do something or just reconnect with old friends.
Speaker 1:We can't travel. Let's talk to people that do travel. Yeah, exactly, we can't go anywhere.
Speaker 2:My youngest son just started at UCSD, so now I'm starting to learn a little bit more about California, but my husband lived in San Francisco for a year or so too at some point in his time. So, yeah, nice yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, san Diego is very, very nice. It's funny because I so I wake surf a lot and I drive there's someone down there that he taught a thousand people how to wake surf and I, um 2017, would go and drive my kids down and he taught them how to wake surf and then I, we did some events and some videos and stuff like that. But, um, it was hilarious because I drive all the way to San Diego and, instead of going towards the beach, I would go to reservoirs, inland yeah, right, right, surf inland.
Speaker 2:Exactly. That's more my style. I grew up. Malawi has about a third of the country. Is this incredibly beautiful lake Sweetwater? Well, obviously it's a lake. It's Sweetwater, beautiful golden beaches. I mean, it's like an absolute paradise.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and you, you know no one ever goes there or very few people, but anyway, but it's just wonderful. So so I am a person, I am, yeah, I mean, I like beaches too, but I definitely love lakes. I mean, from what I've been doing, I'll do, I'll take both, of course. But yeah what's your favorite lake or what do you recommend?
Speaker 2:in in Africa I would go Lake Malawi hands down.
Speaker 1:I mean, and then it's that, you know.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, of course, it's. There's always a bird, um, because it's tropical. So there is that there was it used to be free of the hearts here, which is a nasty little parasite, but it's most of these rift valley lakes in africa um, have it because of, uh, overfishing and they're just certain whatever. It's a whole ecosystem that happens, with snails and people and whatever, and it goes around and if you over fish, you kind of break the cycle and you get this disease called the heart's, yeah, and so that has been a little bit. That's. That's, you know, would stop me from saying, oh, everyone should go right away, um, yeah, just, but no, there are beautiful results and and they've done a good job and it's very easy to take a couple of pills if you, if you are worried about it, but you don't have to be in general, if you're just there for a few weeks, you know, but we, that was kind of where you'd go for weekends every weekend where I grew up. So you know, it's just lovely, yep you have these little cottages.
Speaker 2:There's no electricity, there's no running water, and it was just great you could actually just drink the lake water yeah, at that time, I guess right at that time. Well, the lake is enormous. I mean it's like 360 miles long, oh yeah yeah, looking at it you actually get waves and stuff there. And yeah, I mean it depends where you are, but it's, it's um, it's filled, filled with these cichlids, which are like the most colorful kind of freshwater fish. So it's really wonderful snorkeling everywhere oh, wow and okay.
Speaker 1:So we have some rapid fire questions I'd just like to go through. So I want to go back. Like you're living in malawi, so think back, not what you had in boulder here. So, um, what's the popular religion there? And maybe in south africa is it more indigenous christianity, christianity they did a really nice job.
Speaker 2:David livingston and his cohorts yep, all christian. Okay, mostly. That's not true Muslim too. So it's a Christian, probably first and foremost in East and Southern, but almost split in half, I'd say, once you start to get a little further North and East. So Islam is very, very important, especially along the coastal areas, because that's where the Arabs would do their slave trading. Oh, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:And then we've talked a bit about food, so I won't go into that. What would you have for breakfast? What would be a normal breakfast back in Malawi?
Speaker 2:Eggs or just yeah you know, yeah, yeah, Eggs. Or you know toast, yeah, it's something. I mean, yeah, you didn't get a lot of goods, but you still would sometimes get jam and you sometimes get peanut butter, and that that would be about it for your toast, oh, okay got it.
Speaker 1:And then, how about the music? Is there a lot of still? Well, I mean you, since you go, there is like local music still very popular. Is like, yeah, local music.
Speaker 2:It's a bit of a global now with the internet, but when I grew up there was no TV, um at all. It didn't exist. So it wasn't like my parents were hippies and then one would watch tv. It just it didn't exist. And so, um, local bands, a musician, you know, music is a huge integral part of every African country, I'd say so. There's always local music. But you can hear drums going every night in some village, somebody's celebrating something and so. But as far as what's on the radio, it'd be a mixture of local, because local artists can't record. They didn't, I wouldn't have the money to record or anything. So, you know, occasionally, if you're at a hotel or somewhere, you'd hear a local band or or just a local bar, you'd get local bands. But the radio, you know, you'd have, you know, some Western music that was very, you know, michael Jackson or Lionel Richie or whatever at the time, always about 10 years behind everyone else in the world.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it would filter through Great. And then where's the best surfing Is? It is South Africa, which I assume is good for surfing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, south Africa is fantastic. It's a huge surfing destination, especially around Durban area, which is in the South, and that's where you know that's the equivalent of the California in South Africa would be Durban, and that's where you know that's the equivalent of the California in South Africa would be Durban. You've got lots of surf bombs and it's a whole culture down there. Yep, the only thing they watch out for is great whites, but it's the same as San Francisco. The ocean is not, so it's Indian Ocean. So it's south, southern, south, east OK, that's a little bit south and east Right, and then you get up to Mozambique and the African countries. But, honestly, in the rest of Africa no one can afford a surfboard, or has ever seen one, for the most part.
Speaker 2:So South Africa again, is much more westernized, and so surfing is a white Western activity for sure, and so the only people that would be able to really afford to do it would be I just think they would do it with some like old wood boards or something would be like the old school way, but I don't know.
Speaker 2:Like yeah, I know like, if you think of, like hawaii, no, I don't think no, because actually most fishermen don't swim. Most people, most africans, do not, um, tend to swim. That is not a. That is not a. It's. It's like a very western pastime to go for, jump in a freezing ocean and deal with the waves and all that. Like, most people are like, uh, I don't think so. Yeah, because then you've got in ghana and and the west african coast, I mean, there is this very tiny community of surfers, but it, you know, it's not, it's not something that anyone yeah, you just stay in a boat.
Speaker 2:No life is hard enough and risky. You're not going to fight sharks, you're working right, exactly you don't have time to bum around. You're working, you're getting food for your family or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah all right. Well, thank you so much. Oh my gosh, it's so nice to meet you, kristen, and yeah, it's so nice to meet you.
Speaker 2:That's great, thanks, all right.
Speaker 1:We'll keep it posted Okay.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Bye. If you enjoy our podcast, be sure to subscribe to our show, rate us in your podcast app and follow us on Instagram at where next podcast, if you are interested in being a guest on our show or we're like to nominate someone. If you are interested in being a guest on our show or would like to nominate someone, please contact us on our website at wwwwherenextpodcastcom. Thanks for listening.
